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Faction Warfare timer bug and occupancy warfare

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Author
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Ghostbirds
#1 - 2012-04-19 05:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Damar Rocarion
FW timer bug: A glitch which stops factional warfare complexes from closing when timer reaches 0. This occurs with almost 100% reliability when pvp occurs with members of hostile militia within timers capture range. This bug has existed since start of faction warfare and CCP has not fixed it despite repeated requests.

Usually this requires the other side to sit inside a complex for uncertain amount of time until complex decides to count itself captured. This can take anything between a minute or an hour.


Occupancy in factional warfare is related to aforementioned complexes. Often times the timer bug was used deliberately by one side to suicide a cheap alt to timer so they would have time to rally required numbers to chase away the opposing side.

There were also numerous other methods which were used to stop occupancy warfare by stopping complexes from despawning such as by keeping a cloaker inside a plex so it could not appear elsewhere that opposing side wanted to conquer.

Recently the occupancy warfare was changed so that "outpost" category plexes would respawn every 30 minutes after being taken. However, often times they would stop respawning so I investigated the matter and it seemed that Gallente militia was somehow able to remove the outposts from circulation when faced with too much opposition from Caldari militia.

Various methods were used such as off-grid ships, etc.

To keep up with evolving tactics of warfare, I figured out that you can remove the plex from circulation using the following method.

- Fly to timer with alt belonging to opposing militia. Timer is most likely bugged
- Run the timer to 0 and warp out.
- Outpost will despawn eventually and never re-appear until next downtime.

Gallente side seemed angry about me doing what they have been doing for months and i've been petitioned.
This was the message from GM:


Exploiting

From: GM xxxxx
To: Damar Rocarion

This is an official warning for using an exploit (FW Exploit). Exploiting bugs in game mechanics is a EULA Violation and any further violations of this nature may lead to a permanent ban being placed upon your account.


If this is official CCP stance, then it means that activity (pvp) inside an enviroment (fw complexes) specially designed for said activity is an exploit since pvp triggers the possibility of a bug with almost 100% reliability. And since people have vested interested to participate in occupancy warfare, entering a complex where enemy is already inside can be petitioned as game mechanics violation.

To me this falls into same category as GM told me when we petitioned cloakers who stopped plexes from despawning. The answer was "Working as intended. It is not illegal for players to cloak wherever they want in space". Therefore it cannot be illegal for militia members to enter factional warfare complexes either.

Otherwise GM's would have to judge every event of people entering a plex and decide whether or not it's made with intention to do pvp or to bug timers and then slap bans on people if by some criteria they decide that this person is not really serious about occupancy warfare.

So either CCP declares that participating in factional warfare is bannable offense or they could actually try to fix a well known bug (timers) which has existed since beginning of factional warfare and which fixing has been asked numerous times.

D.R
Super Chair
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#2 - 2012-04-19 07:36:40 UTC
Quote:
Bug that causes outposts to not respawn:
Say militia A is running the timer in the plex. Militia B shows up and forces Militia A out of the plex and begin running the timer. Militia A comes back and forces Militia B out and runs the timer until the timer goes to what is normally "captured" on the timer progress bar that you see in space. However, the timer "bugs" and the capture message does not appear in local (even though the progress bar, or timer on the button shows captured). Militia A now has two options, they can spend the extra time and continue to sit on the timer until the capture message shows up in local, or they can choose (or be forced) to leave to plex before the capture message (in local) appears. If the second scenario happens, and Militia A leaves the plex before the message in local appears, the plex will despawn just like any other "captured" plex and close. However, it will not respawn. So, outposts can be removed from circulation thus making a system "unattackable" intentionally. Also keep in mind that this can be caused unintentionally (such as two militias fighting over the the plex, and whoever wins the plex doesn't know any better and warps off when the timer reads captured, but no green message in local to say that the plex was actually captured, or that militia knows of the bug, tries to sit on the timer for an extra amount of time, but is forced to leave the plex because of a blob coming for them).

Again to recap the conditions that must be met:
1) Members of opposing militias must each control the timer at some point
2) The militia that controls the timer originally must be the militia to capture the plex for the bug to occur. (So in an A->B->A->Captured format) If Militia A controls the timer and then Militia B comes and and kicks Militia A out and captures it (A->B->Captured) the bug will not occur (at least that is what I have witnessed).
3) Militia A must vacate the plex so it will despawn sometime between the progress bar showing "captured" and the local message showing up in local.


Am I correct in the details of the bug? I haven't seen it happen unless control of the timer changes hands at least twice.


Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Ghostbirds
#3 - 2012-04-19 07:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Damar Rocarion
Super Chair wrote:
Am I correct in the details of the bug? I haven't seen it happen unless control of the timer changes hands at least twice.

Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?


You are more or less correct.

GM did not make a stance about intentional or unintenional but the main thing is that activity where member of hostile militia enters the plex essentially becomes a bannable offense for your account.

This to me is of course a flawed logic when the actual cause of the trouble is a faulty product that CCP does not want to fix and threat of banning is either biased (GM favors the other side) or ignorant of the mechanics involved.

Otherwise if timer bug occurs, other side can form an overwhelming blob and when defenders warp off so they won't get killed, the attacking fleet simply petitions every member of the defending fleet and gets them banned for attempting this "exploit".

Is this what CCP wants?
Super Chair
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#4 - 2012-04-19 08:09:30 UTC
That'd be pretty gay if that was the case. That quote right there is what I mailed hans the other day when I asked him if you told him about the bug. He said that you told him about it so I sent him as much information as I could regarding it.
Val Erian
Azure Horizon Federate Militia
#5 - 2012-04-19 13:26:26 UTC
What a tard you are to try and obscure and distract that you were personaly warned to stop exploiting a bug .

Of course Fw complex bugs can occur when both sides on timer. And of course its not petionable when it occure in course of normal gameplay...




What was petitioned by various people was that you Damar Rocarion were using an Alt in Gallente milita and your charectors in Caldari Milita to EXPLOIT a bug [/b to your advantage by removing FW compl]xs from circulation in OICX. You did it openly and challenged peopel to petition you by posting on the forums about it.


By the way posting this about the response from GM is also against EVE rules,

Face it, you got away with so many exploits in the past that you thought you could do it again.












Val Erian
Azure Horizon Federate Militia
#6 - 2012-04-19 13:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Val Erian
Super Chair wrote:
That'd be pretty gay if that was the case. That quote right there is what I mailed hans the other day when I asked him if you told him about the bug. He said that you told him about it so I sent him as much information as I could regarding it.

Its obviously not the case, its just Damar getting all dramtic about being caught Exploiting. Which you know perfectly well he was doing.....We discussed it in local just the other day.


Once again, when Damar creates a gallente alt to go into plex at same time as his Caldari milita ones to cause the bug ON PURPOSE to prevent FW outposts from spawning in a system for his advantage it isan EXPLOIT.

I suggest he ignore CCP Exploit warning and keep it up. POst about it some more on forums... smack us in local thats its 'working as intended'.

Do it Damar.
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Ghostbirds
#7 - 2012-04-19 13:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Damar Rocarion
Val Erian wrote:
I suggest he ignore CCP Exploit warning and keep it up. POst about it some more on forums... smack us in local thats its 'working as intended'.
'

It's "working as intended" as much as you stopping plex despawns in Agoze by the virtue of your cloaker alt, off-grid ships in Aivonen and so forth. Mechanics might differ but end result was the same = no occupancy warfare.

The whole attitude of your side has always been "It is ok as long as we do it but if other side does it, it's wrong". Anyway, I reported a bug but as I said to GM, if encouraged mechanics promote triggering of the bug, then it's quite clear what is wrong here.

Anyway, I told Hans well in advance that I hope I get petitioned (before starting this thing) and we get response from GM saying it's exploit, it simply means CCP has no interest to fix a faulty product. If they say it's a bug and should not be used then at least it indicates they might wisht o fix it. If they say it's ok, then they also say it's a faulty product they wont fix.

So you saying I got caught red-handed does not exactly hold water. In any case, the villain of the story (me) wins here....
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#8 - 2012-04-19 14:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Messenger
Well, you get warning only because you are part of Caldari militia and preventing CCP plans to make gallente to win.

I recommend that everyone quits militia right now because normal game play may cause you to get bans.

CCP has finally gone too far.

This must be related to their new goal to make WoW in space.


Edit: i btw petitoned gallente about same issue 2 years ago, nothing happened.
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Ghostbirds
#9 - 2012-04-19 14:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Damar Rocarion
Val Erian wrote:
Of course Fw complex bugs can occur when both sides on timer. And of course its not petionable when it occure in course of normal gameplay...


And person determing course of a normal gameplay is? Logistics, boosters, etc. alts in opposing militia make no sense from realistic perspective yet these are deemed normal course of game play which nobody is deeming as exploit. Therefore wt going to a timer cannot be an exploit either in the light of this and GM is altogether wrong.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2012-04-19 15:27:19 UTC
Super Chair wrote:

Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?


That is what I intend to find out.

Like I've told Damar via email, It is not the job of the CSM to resolve individual GM petitions, so I cannot intervene and deal with things like the accusations of "Gallente bias" on the part of CCP, All each of the two factions can do for now is petition each other if they suspect an exploit and let the GM's sort it out.

What I CAN do is tell them that, as you've pointed out, this scenario that is deemed an "exploit" is trigger-able during normal game play, and thus I can ask for clarification as to the precise rules regarding enforcement, or even better, for them to spend time actually fixing the bugs in the timer mechanics themselves, so that neither faction can use this technique anymore.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#11 - 2012-04-19 15:39:04 UTC
So it is a bug or using it wouldn't be deemed an exploit .. good to know. Then again CCP changes their stance like a person afflicted with diarrhoea changes his underwear, the only consistency is their inconsistency (ref: cloak capture, autorun timers, stuck plexes, NPC aggro switching, neutral tanking etc. ad nauseum)

And yeah, it has been around for as long as I can remember, stands to reason that it is even more evident now after the plex-spam "fix" they introduced.
Will be very interesting to see how they plan to differentiate between it being triggered by 'legitimate' pew or an alt .. doubt their twigs (aka. anaemic logs) show enough for them to do it without making organized plexing stop dead in its tracks.
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Ghostbirds
#12 - 2012-04-19 16:10:54 UTC
Super Chair wrote:
Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?


Good that you reminded me. I must immediately petition following gallente pilots for coming into Pavanakka medium plex (I dont remember everyone who was there) this wednesday and as result of fighting over timer, the timer was bugged.

X Gallentius
Hrett
Erik18black (or something)

Because according to GM, they were guilty of a bannable offense. Petition time!
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#13 - 2012-04-19 16:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Damar Rocarion wrote:


Good that you reminded me. I must immediately petition following gallente pilots for coming into Pavanakka medium plex (I dont remember everyone who was there) this wednesday and as result of fighting over timer, the timer was bugged.

X Gallentius
Hrett
Erik18black (or something)

Because according to GM, they were guilty of a bannable offense. Petition time!


I think that would be considered a bug.
Using your own or some other friendly opposing faction alt to trigger that bug would probably be considered exploiting a bug.
Key word is exploiting.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#14 - 2012-04-19 16:29:28 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Damar Rocarion wrote:


Good that you reminded me. I must immediately petition following gallente pilots for coming into Pavanakka medium plex (I dont remember everyone who was there) this wednesday and as result of fighting over timer, the timer was bugged.

X Gallentius
Hrett
Erik18black (or something)

Because according to GM, they were guilty of a bannable offense. Petition time!


I think that would be considered a bug.
Using your own opposing faction alt to trigger that bug would probably be considered exploiting a bug.
Key word is exploiting.


So if you want to bug plex you ask your fellow milita member to log his opposing militia alt to bug plex. Is that how gallente does it to avoid exploit ?
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#15 - 2012-04-19 16:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Bad Messenger wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Damar Rocarion wrote:


Good that you reminded me. I must immediately petition following gallente pilots for coming into Pavanakka medium plex (I dont remember everyone who was there) this wednesday and as result of fighting over timer, the timer was bugged.

X Gallentius
Hrett
Erik18black (or something)

Because according to GM, they were guilty of a bannable offense. Petition time!


I think that would be considered a bug.
Using your own opposing faction alt to trigger that bug would probably be considered exploiting a bug.
Key word is exploiting.


So if you want to bug plex you ask your fellow milita member to log his opposing militia alt to bug plex. Is that how gallente does it to avoid exploit ?


I just edited my post as you posted that lol

Intentionally triggering any bug that isnt working as intended would be exploiting that bug.
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Ghostbirds
#16 - 2012-04-19 16:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Damar Rocarion
Bad Messenger wrote:
So if you want to bug plex you ask your fellow milita member to log his opposing militia alt to bug plex. Is that how gallente does it to avoid exploit ?


Pretty much. Using friends alt leaves the "reasonable doubt" defense there. Of course account sharing is widely practiced.
But as said, the stance of gallente militia and CCP is and has always been "It is acceptable for Gallente to do it but not for Caldari".

Hell, Val Erian even accused the "standings" thing we did in Metropolis as response to HIS (and Ankhs) continued use of it to be an exploit now, when we have CCP's official answer that "This is working as intended". So how does it go Val, banhammer for you?
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#17 - 2012-04-19 17:04:37 UTC
Damar Rocarion wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
So if you want to bug plex you ask your fellow milita member to log his opposing militia alt to bug plex. Is that how gallente does it to avoid exploit ?


Pretty much. Using friends alt leaves the "reasonable doubt" defense there. Of course account sharing is widely practiced.
But as said, the stance of gallente militia and CCP is and has always been "It is acceptable for Gallente to do it but not for Caldari".

Hell, Val Erian even accused the "standings" thing we did in Metropolis as response to HIS (and Ankhs) continued use of it to be an exploit now, when we have CCP's official answer that "This is working as intended". So how does it go Val, banhammer for you?


Val doesnt ban people ccp does. So it seems you already have your answer.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#18 - 2012-04-19 17:07:47 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Damar Rocarion wrote:


Good that you reminded me. I must immediately petition following gallente pilots for coming into Pavanakka medium plex (I dont remember everyone who was there) this wednesday and as result of fighting over timer, the timer was bugged.

X Gallentius
Hrett
Erik18black (or something)

Because according to GM, they were guilty of a bannable offense. Petition time!


I think that would be considered a bug.
Using your own opposing faction alt to trigger that bug would probably be considered exploiting a bug.
Key word is exploiting.


So if you want to bug plex you ask your fellow milita member to log his opposing militia alt to bug plex. Is that how gallente does it to avoid exploit ?


I just edited my post as you posted that lol

Intentionally triggering any bug that isnt working as intended would be exploiting that bug.


I petitioned some gallente players two years ago from activity like this, ccp did not see any problem. Now after 2 years they have decided that it is bannable to do that Roll
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#19 - 2012-04-19 17:16:04 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:


I petitioned some gallente players two years ago from activity like this, ccp did not see any problem. Now after 2 years they have decided that it is bannable to do that Roll


If your powers of explanation are as weak as your powers of comprehension perhaps you just didnt explain yourself very well?

If you would like me to reword any petitions you have into something that doesnt make you sound like an ass i could probably help :)
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Ghostbirds
#20 - 2012-04-19 17:22:53 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If your powers of explanation are as weak as your powers of comprehension perhaps you just didnt explain yourself very well?

If you would like me to reword any petitions you have into something that doesnt make you sound like an ass i could probably help :)


Since I checked grammar on them, I highly doubt that is the case. I suspect the case was the CCP's bias towards Gallente militia. After all, CCP's staff has publicly badmouthed Caldari militia (during alliance tournament) among other things, which should be enough proof of this.

And with track record of GM's not knowing anything about FW mechanics and abovementioned bias, this is not at all surprising. It is also the reason why Caldari militia does not really trust CCP. Hell, upcoming changes to FW are designed by a guy who openly waves the flag for the gallente side so trust for CCP do anything right is more or less non-existent.
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