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Amarr Maller confusions
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Damsa Desirah
The Tourniquet Group
#1 - 2012-04-17 18:54:27 UTC
I have recently acquired a Maller and, being so much in love with Amarr construction and design I love it to death. That being said, I was under the impression that cruisers in general were still able to kill frigates with ease while having the umps of being a bigger ship.

I understand that range has a lot to do with it and as such I always carry a long and close range energy turret ammo crystal with me and I switch them as needed. Lately though I have started the sister of eve arc and I find myself.. Missing about 75% of my shots against frigates now that I'm in my Maller.

Is this just a lack of skills that I am missing? If so which skills am I missing in order to help me hit these blasted frigates! If it is something specific to Amarr cruisers that I am not understanding where can I find more information on it?

If I could get any one to help me when I am online later this evening who knows Amarr cruisers I would very much appreciate the help! Just end me an eve mail and hopefully I can understand the game that much more! ^^

Fly dangerously,
Damsa

It's not what your Alliance can do for you... It's what you can do to them before they realize you really work for the almighty WormHole God, BoB...
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-04-17 19:02:43 UTC
As with most things in Eve, bigger isn't always better. While cruisers can usually take on frigs just fine with proper support skills, thinking that they will "take out frigates with ease", especially at low SP, is a mistake. Modules such as Tracking Computers and Tracking Enhancers will help your larger guns track the smaller ships better, but the larger guns are designed to take on larger things.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-04-17 19:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyron-Baktos
A Maller should easily be able to hit a frigate unless you are too far away or maybe extremely close

what is your range from the ships when you are missing and what is your optimal range? Also, what are your skills in the following skill sets?

Skills that effect it are:
Motion Prediction - Improved ability at hitting moving targets. 5% bonus per skill level to weapon turret tracking speeds.
Trajectory Analysis - Advanced understanding of zero-G physics. 5% bonus per skill level to weapon turret accuracy falloff.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#4 - 2012-04-17 19:17:46 UTC
I'm going to go and assume you're using cruiser-sized pulse lasers on this Maller. One of the biggest disadvantages of lasers is their poor tracking speed, which leads to trouble hitting things that are too close up, or that move too fast. Tracking is measured in radians per second, and you can think of it as the speed that guns can turn to keep pointing at their target. The bigger the guns, the harder time they have turning fast enough to hit small/fast stuff accurately.

This is similar to how in naval warfare it's difficult to hit a jet ski using battleship guns. If you hit, it devastates the jet ski, but if not, you just give him more waves to pull off his sick moves on. Conversely, the dude on the jet ski has no trouble hitting your battleship with his handgun, but is completely ineffective at doing anything other than scratching your paint.

At their optimal range (which is longer than any of the other short range weapon systems), pulse lasers have great tracking -- but at less than that they struggle. Some things you can do to mitigate this:


  • Use stasis webifiers to slow your targets down.
  • If you're fighting them at more than 10 km, use a target painter instead (webs can't reach out as far as TPs, but are somewhat more effective).
  • Do not orbit targets. This is one of those big things that make people think lasers suck, because they require different use than blasters or autocannons.
  • If you are being orbited, burn in a straight line at high speed. This trails your enemies behind you, lowering their transversal speed and making them easier to hit.
  • Use drones. (Maller doesn't have any, but this is on principle)
  • Stay at longer range. Longer range = less angular velocity = better tracking.


Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
AstarothPrime
Pecunia Infinita
#5 - 2012-04-17 22:56:03 UTC
Two words:

tracking computers

I.
Tri Vetra
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-04-18 00:14:03 UTC
you need to fit a web on a maller since it doesn't have a drone bay
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#7 - 2012-04-18 03:39:10 UTC
My dual plated Maller with small autocannons hits frigates pretty well.
Toshiro GreyHawk
#8 - 2012-04-18 06:25:24 UTC


I had the exact same problem with my Maller.

I was using Beam Lasers.

I trained up Motion Detection and Fit a Target Painter. These two things largely solved the problem - as long as I wasn't to close to the small rats.

If I were - I Flew out away from the rats using my AB to put them behind me where their was less change in their positions - and hence less of a tracking problem.


A tracking computer should work too - but i typically fly in pairs and each Target Painter lights up the target for everyone in the area - and they stack.
Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-04-18 07:27:45 UTC
It also depends what turrets and crystals you use, if you have pulse lasers and multifreq crystals, you won't be able to hit the rats until they get up close and since medium turrets can't track frigates up close, you're screwed.
I don't remember the missions, but if you use microwave crystals and beam lasers, you might lose a bit in raw DPS, but you will be able to kite them.
Fit a 10mn afterburner, or maybe a MWD to control the range, and use "keep at range" to keep the targeted rat with a low transversal.

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
Liam Mirren
#10 - 2012-04-18 07:42:31 UTC
Honestly, get an Omen. it's just better at pve due to increased dps and having some drones.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-04-18 07:47:34 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
Honestly, get an Omen. it's just better at pve due to increased dps and having some drones.

Better DPS maybe, but at the cost of having any kind of tank whatsoever. The Omen is such a poor cruiser anyway... almost impossible to fit it effectively to do anything but die in a fire.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Liam Mirren
#12 - 2012-04-18 07:56:35 UTC
For lvl 2s it's fine, not like you really have to tank there. This is a Meta 0 template that newbies can fit just fine and improve upon by using named mods. It's more than enough tank, more dps than a maller and can deal with the upclose crap.


[Omen, lvl 2 - basic]
Medium Armor Repairer I
Energized EM Membrane I
Energized Thermic Membrane I
Energized Thermic Membrane I
Capacitor Power Relay I

10MN Afterburner I
Stasis Webifier I
Cap Recharger I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hobgoblin I x3

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-04-18 08:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Joran Dravius
Damsa Desirah wrote:
I have recently acquired a Maller and, being so much in love with Amarr construction and design I love it to death. That being said, I was under the impression that cruisers in general were still able to kill frigates with ease while having the umps of being a bigger ship.

I understand that range has a lot to do with it and as such I always carry a long and close range energy turret ammo crystal with me and I switch them as needed. Lately though I have started the sister of eve arc and I find myself.. Missing about 75% of my shots against frigates now that I'm in my Maller.

Is this just a lack of skills that I am missing? If so which skills am I missing in order to help me hit these blasted frigates! If it is something specific to Amarr cruisers that I am not understanding where can I find more information on it?

If I could get any one to help me when I am online later this evening who knows Amarr cruisers I would very much appreciate the help! Just end me an eve mail and hopefully I can understand the game that much more! ^^

Fly dangerously,
Damsa

Maller isn't the best ship to fight frigates in. Lacks a drone bay. Try using a web and the highest tracking lasers. Remember to keep radial velocity low.

Toshiro GreyHawk wrote:

I trained up Motion Detection

Think you mean motion prediction.
Liam Mirren
#14 - 2012-04-18 08:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Joran Dravius wrote:
Maller isn't the best ship to fight frigates in. Lacks a drone bay. Try using a web and the highest tracking lasers. Remember to keep radial angular velocity low.


FYP

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Jouron
Hadon Shipping
#15 - 2012-04-18 13:55:55 UTC
You will need to fit an AB or a web or both.

You will need to kill frigate before they get in range and start orbiting you. Once they do your DPS drops considerably.

It is possible to kill frigates with beam lasers but you need to kite them which isnt possible in every mission.

Kiting means you move away from the enemy group you have drawn agro from, as you move away from them they approach you in a straight line and there transversal velocity drops to zero and your guns will start hammering them.

The problem is you can only do this if you fit a prop mod. AB or Microwarpdrive. If there are webbing frigates faster then you. Which there probably are, and the maller is slow with low skills, They will web you and your kitting will be up **** creek with out a paddle. Especially since the maller has no drone bay.

As sexy as the maller may be with its resistance bonus and aethetics. You may have to use the omen. The omen is faster has a rate of fire bonus to guns and more importantly a drone bay. So if those pesty frigates roll up and snag you with a web you can just kill them with drones.

Low skilled missioning in a maller is a bear. Trust me I tried it on an alt once.

give this a shot.

omen mission type

5 x Focused Medium pulse laser II
1 x small electrochemical capacitor booster cap booster 200
1 x experimental 10mn After burner
1 x optical tracking computer (tracking script)
1 x medium accomodation vestment reconstructor
4 x racial experimental hardeners
3 x Auxiliary nano pumps.

Its not cap stable, so you will have to trade off between running the repper or the after burner. It will run the guns the AB and the repper flat out for a minute a 38 seconds. I try not to suggest cap stable fits. They turn into a unhealthy obsession for new mission runners after a while. Agro and cap management make missions more interesting.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-04-18 14:19:44 UTC
Jouron wrote:
Agro and cap management make missions more interesting.


Not really. First time I solo'ed The Blockade in my Apoc I was very close to fall asleep around second/third spawn. Good thing I did kill one of the last triggers way too soon so that kinda saved my ship.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-04-18 15:04:45 UTC
ya, The Blockade can be nasty if you mess up agro. I used the Omen just fine for level 2's and only had troubles on The Blockade.

I'm now using a Harbinger just fine on level 3's, except for The Blockade, lol
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-04-18 15:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
I'm now using a Harbinger just fine on level 3's, except for The Blockade, lol


After learning the triggers in The Blockade it becomes easy. Only problem for me in this mission is range rats spawn. My Harbinger uses more time flying around than actually shooting stuff.

But that's what I did to myself when I decided to abandon "must be cap stable" mentality.
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#19 - 2012-04-18 16:45:15 UTC
While the long-term solutions presented in this thread (train skills for better tracking, use tracking enhancers, fly a ship with a drone bay) are perfectly valid and will work fine...

The easy solution here for the Sisters of Eve epic arc specifically is "no, you're in the wrong ship type, build a destroyer instead". It's probably best to get used to the tracking/falloff system in a boat that has both good tracking and good falloff anyhow. Save the cruiser for the last, like, four or five missions of the SoE arc at the earliest, and L2 missions at the lowest. Most of the SoE arc is L1 mission equivalent and running L1s with medium guns is like pulling teeth with a crescent wrench-- possible, but not pleasant.
Devore Sekk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-04-19 07:24:40 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
The easy solution here for the Sisters of Eve epic arc specifically is "no, you're in the wrong ship type, build a destroyer instead". It's probably best to get used to the tracking/falloff system in a boat that has both good tracking and good falloff anyhow. Save the cruiser for the last, like, four or five missions of the SoE arc at the earliest, and L2 missions at the lowest. Most of the SoE arc is L1 mission equivalent and running L1s with medium guns is like pulling teeth with a crescent wrench-- possible, but not pleasant.


Bingo. When I was doing the SoE arc, I went through a dozen different ships and fits. Being Amarr, the neuting boss was like hitting a wall (but easy to tank), until I noticed autocannons required no cap, thus my autocannon Coercer was born.

EVE is really about using the right ship for the right job. If you do no have enough skills to fly a cruiser that can kill frigates easily, you have to switch out into a destroyer or a frigate yourself. Beam lasers, while doing decent damage and having good range have terrible tracking, so maybe switching to pulse lasers, or a lighter laser turret variety will work better. And of course the Maller is a much maligned ship (rightly so, no drones, ugh). I started out in an Omen, and was able to do quite a bit with it, albeit slowly, once even training and strapping on rail guns to clear out some pesky stasis towers.

Now I fly an Arbitrator, which I find to be a nice package capable of clearing many level 3 missions and 4/10 deds, and having good support and fitting skills helps a ton too, although some bosses do require me to bust out my destroyer because even medium drones don't get the job done (and I can't use T2 drones yet). Plus, it's a sexy looking ship, which counts for a lot for me.