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1% profit/month glass ceiling ?
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Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-03-21 13:01:28 UTC
Liberty Eternal wrote:
The obvious answer that springs to mind is that you would have to collaborate with a group of experienced traders and investors. If not necessarilly sharing money, then sharing information and tasks. There are many half-active traders out there who might enjoy the challenge.


This general direction is where my mind went as well.

You achieve it by leveraging the work of others...just like in real life :P
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#22 - 2012-03-21 13:48:23 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
How bad have t2 bpos become? <1% a month I assume?

The overall manufacturing ROI on my T2 BPO portfolio is about 3%.

TornSoul wrote:
Problem with t2 BPOs is availability.

Absolutely.

In order to get good manufacturing returns you need to choose your T2 BPOs very carefully. Some months I might pick up one or two BPOs, most months I can't even find one worth buying... and not much get's past me.

TornSoul wrote:
Titan BPC's.
Highly dangerous market to venture into, both due to other players and not least CCP.

The glass ceiling here I would put at around 5-10 Titan BPC's a month - Lets call it 5 as to not be to over optimistic.
Baring in mind the competition and the (comparatively) low demand I think that's a fair "round number" for this exercise.

Lets also put a conservative value of 5B on each BPC (having the nerf bat in mind)
That puts it at just 25B a month..
And if 25B is 1% - the total amount would be 2.5T ISK (which is plenty for actually buying the needed amount of Titan BPO's to keep up the needed production of BPCs)

The prime time for investing in Titan BPOs is long past. Just take a quick look at the market history to see how many BPOs have been sold in the last year and take a look at Supercarrier BPOs and BPCs for an illustration of where things are headed.
TornSoul
BIG
#23 - 2012-03-27 18:11:18 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
Liberty Eternal wrote:
The obvious answer that springs to mind is that you would have to collaborate with a group of experienced traders and investors. If not necessarilly sharing money, then sharing information and tasks. There are many half-active traders out there who might enjoy the challenge.


This general direction is where my mind went as well.

You achieve it by leveraging the work of others...just like in real life :P


In which case you could argue hundreds of trillions are already being utilized this way (if you add up all traders)

Which is why I limited it to what one player could do.

Bad Bobby wrote:

The prime time for investing in Titan BPOs is long past.


Totally agree - I just put it there to start the ball rolling.

Another really bad thing about the Titan BPC business (at that scale) is that it would be a major PITA to try and liquidate should it become necessary.
Rothgore
P Brain
#24 - 2012-03-31 21:48:34 UTC
-
Dylan Dudicle
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-04-01 17:22:57 UTC
Market Manipulation.
Buy and Hold.
Phoenix Pryde
3-I Area 42
#26 - 2012-04-01 18:13:33 UTC
The real problem is to sustain the motivation past the trillion(s) mark ;P


But in average if you keep active and just do something profitable with at least decent chunks of the ISK i d say the 1% profit of your total NAV should be doable to at least a couple T.
I am saying in average because its obviously very much possible to get more than 1% profit, but i dare say that there isnt many ppl who would/could truly grind on forever with such capital. Far more likely (and more enjoyable) to take on different ventures as they come up (most likely only with parts of the capital, but for higher profits).

As a comment on T2 BPOs, a large multi-T portfolio probably nets more of around 1-1.5% per month in the long term (valued at contemporary market values). That said, it ofc would depend on the specifics, but a too strong focus can bite you in the ass.


The 'easiest' way might just be margin trading.


How high you put that number of ISK keeping at work really is throttled by the effort you want to put in mostly. The market gives some ceiling, but i think time & effort will get to you first :P
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#27 - 2012-04-01 18:48:39 UTC
Phoenix Pryde wrote:
The real problem is to sustain the motivation past the trillion(s) mark ;P

I haven't found that to be an issue, at least not at the 1-2 trillion mark.

The issue I've been having is that I just don't have enough isk to take advantage of all the oppertunities.

But, and this is a big but: there is a significant amount of risk in my portfolio. TornSoul is looking for "sure things".

Another major limiting factor for me is mental capacity. I'm not all that intelligent and I can't handle mental arithmatic at all, so most of my "market player" friends leave me in their dust.
AureoBroker
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-04-01 21:30:41 UTC
Social engineering seemed to have worked better than math for you, anyway. ;p
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#29 - 2012-04-02 05:32:17 UTC
AureoBroker wrote:
Social engineering seemed to have worked better than math for you, anyway. ;p

You have to work with what you have.
Xaqa
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-04-02 07:22:28 UTC
bumping for interest

The Cryptic Arch - Always Building
TornSoul
BIG
#31 - 2012-04-06 18:46:46 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
[quote=Phoenix Pryde]
But, and this is a big but: there is a significant amount of risk in my portfolio. TornSoul is looking for "sure things".


Yup the "sure thing" (99%) is an obvious hurdle.

--

RE all the "buy and hold" comments :
You have to think of this in terms of *having* to make 1% each month.
Ie. you can't "make nothing" for 3-4 months and then make 4% the last month.

It has to be a stable income.

Not easy at the double-digit trillion mark - Hence why I've named it a "challenge" :-)
Adunh Slavy
#32 - 2012-04-06 22:23:34 UTC
Maybe the question is being asked the wrong way.

Perhaps the better question would be, how to increase the wealth 1% when NAV is that high, and not the amount of ISK. For example, looking back over that 2007-2009 price deflation period, if you held your NAV in ISK, you're more wealthy in relative terms. Now, with the mineral move, having your wealth there might be the thing to have done.

By all indications, CCP is attempting to reduce the amount of ISK while decreasing the amount of supply, at least in minerals. Which will move more quickly upwards in value in relative terms, and at a pace that someone with that much NAV can manage.

How quickly you can move that wealth between sectors becomes the question versus how much ISK you have blinking at you. The game is the same as ever, buy low and sell high, you need to see it a year in advance and what you buy and sell may not even be something you can put on the market.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-04-06 22:47:55 UTC
Have you looked at the character market? I'm pretty sure there is a lot of isk to make in the next year if you want to invest a few trillions in mining and industry toons

Also long term investments in PI stuff not used much right now (dust is coming)
opati
Gilbatron Heavy Industries
#34 - 2012-04-06 23:15:51 UTC
If I had trillions I would make my own hulkageddon/ice interdiction, buy loads of isotopes in the next 1-2 months, after that period put a bounty on Mackinaws, hulks and orcas killed in certain systems. Make sure that message is heard loud and clearly and pay the bounty for a few days, give out prices for comedy killmails, the guy who kills most barges stuff like that

people will start to speculate on ice like crazy, price will go up a 'few' percent. Cash out

you don't make the profit on the interdiction itself, but more on the people who start speculating as soon as the message goes out
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#35 - 2012-04-07 03:51:33 UTC
1% a month isn't that high at all, you'd end up losing isk due to inflation. You'd be better off just buying a hard product like PLEX and sitting on them in that case. If you want to minimize the effort you'd put into massive large scale investments, then the choice is obvious, you need to start a personal banking scheme where you give out 120% collateralized loans and only ask for 1% return a month.

It's fairly obvious that an active player micromanaging their finances can get 1% a month return on small to midrange investment schemes - and if not, they can always rat up enough isk to cover the difference. Thus lending out isk to many players is the best way to scale nearly infinitely.

Since you wouldn't be calling for any investments trust wouldn't be a huge issue by the public. Collateral exchange could be done through contracts for the isk, and the only risk is that you'd cut and run with their 120% collateral. Obviously that's not good for your long term interests, so you'd get many takers. The more popular and stable you are the more loans you'd be giving out. Having a fancy website to track such things would also be neat.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-04-08 07:25:55 UTC
I am literally astounded by you genius bastards. You could be completely blowing smoke out your asses but to a laymen pve,pvp person it's like reading the kama sutra and realizing there is more than missionary.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#37 - 2012-04-08 07:40:21 UTC
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
I am literally astounded by you genius bastards. You could be completely blowing smoke out your asses but to a laymen pve,pvp person it's like reading the kama sutra and realizing there is more than missionary.

With the lights on and with the lights off?
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#38 - 2012-04-08 08:14:06 UTC
Surely just buying PLEX is 100% sure fire way to get positive ROI. Eve one day is going to die and when people stop spending real dollars PLEX will go thru the roof for those die hards still wanting to play game? Also in the end you may be able to cash out your subscriptions into real dollars if CCP ever went into administration here in the UK?
TornSoul
BIG
#39 - 2012-04-15 20:41:51 UTC
TornSoul wrote:
Show me a 99% sure way of making even as little as 1% return on 10's of trillions each month - and I'll accept the challenge. Lol


A lot of poster are missing the key points in the above - I've bolded and underlined them now.

--

The premise is that one needs to be able to take that 1% (or better) each and every month, and spend it on something (div payouts, interest, fancy ships, exotic dancers).

Thus
"Buy X, sit on it for Y months, then sell"
"Buy all of X, then dump when price soars"
etc

are all schemes that won't work under the above premise.

They are all valid ISK making schemes, not saying they aren't - Just that for this particular "challenge" they are not.
Akusaa XII
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-04-16 17:12:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Akusaa XII
Wow what an easy challenge. The answer is to abuse inflation of course. Step one, buy materials/ships/modules, step two is to wait for inflation to boost prices for everything, step 3 is to sell at new prices. Of course It's not as easy as I describe it but it does work in theory, and yes buying power will remain the same but the isk number will increase surely. Also, I do know of a way to get way more than 1% but it's a zero sum game, if you get a rush from that kind of stuff like I do then by all means figure it out Cool