Market Discussions

Again the turning things upside down is exactly the point. Stockpiles need to move out to locations from a market perspective. What we have atm is stockpiles at a central location. That is reverse from what market should do. Jita should mainly cater to buyers and resale should be spread. The only reason for this is that its impossible to spread the stocks.

Your assumptions are based within the existing model. To see why it is flawed compare it to real life markets and consider why a change would be a benefit. The prices on markets would still benefit from the natural hub competition and locations like Jita would still be the place to reach price equilibrium first. The benefit from removal of the order and contract cap would be that the items could be redistributed out from the hubs way faster and easier. So instead of 500 frigs in Jita, you would get 10 times 50 frigs around the forge.

As mentioned to limitation to changes should ideally be controlled by price of brokers, but a modifications per day is just simpler. You would not be using these when buying from market of quickselling to market, it would only be relevant when you entered the competition on the markets. So to the average player it would not matter at all. This suggestion is only about competition and how to improve distribution of universal assets, both items and isk.

Its strange that so many EVE players keep defending this limitation, since its one of the key reasons for so many small irritations. Like moving around so much for the fair prices and buying items you need. We have a strongly centralized market and hub dependance, because there is no alternative. Players have centered around hubs not only because of natural network developments, but because ccp brought in changes that created the current status quo.

Market Nerf and Highway NErf was key to a lot of the strong centralized markets we have today.

A lot of self contradiction going on here. Removing or switching the mechanics to infinite orders and limited modifications is going to liberalize the market. Since that would make it possible to strategically seed markets. The current limitation of outstanding orders promotes centralization. Also current state is beneficial to bots and to the alt model.

The servers would be less strained by a bigger db and less procedure calls. Every time traders play patty cake with microbids the servers are strained. Spreading the load out more in time and space would benefit all.

The claim that a feature restrain can be worked around with alts is usually a good indicator that the mechanic is broken.

CCP should not have mechanics ingame that increase their sales of accounts. You should be able to get the same gameplay mechnically with one character as with several. The only exception to that rule would be specialization. When you are specialized with a trade charecter no barriers should remain. Except maybe territorial limits.

I was around when these limits were not there, and I can say the markets were a lot more fun and stable. The holes and distribution issues we see now was reduced.

The result of no caps on market and contract orders would motivate players to put all their assets to work. Items would be on market or in contracts either auctions or couriers. Also isk would be bound up more in escrow for potential investment. This whole change would bring a lot of new gameplay in every way. Improved options for corp trading etc. Here I refer to the added option of using standing to limit on contracts, so alliance and affiliate exchanges would be possible. Add to that the increased services that could arise from secondary markets in the form of futures trading, IPOs and even banking. Since more interaction and markets would be measurable directly using API. The numbers from NAV and the expected incomes would be more stable.

I will still revert to the argument of Real Life markets. A limitation of this current kind is disruptive at best and destructive to motivation. I am merely trying to point to some potential changes that would improve the gameplay for all except maybe bots and groups that dont like more competition.

Sounds like a Bot makers dream.
If you seriously had intentions on helping others then you would have started with "Lets increase the amount of market orders, certain skills give per level-Not to much but Just enough to make it perfect"

If there was a problem, there would be complaining, if this happens, then What will we have?
Complaining.

The problem is really not bot. The main problem with bots and actually the current microbid gamestyle is that it makes the markets fully hubcentric. The main proof of this problem is the extremely tight margins at hubs, which result in almost only manipulation and trend shifting effects. The key thing to notice here is that almost all stockpiles of raw materials are traded in Jita, this on the seller side. Why is that a problem you may ask? Well the ideal thing about a central trade is about buying raw materials and then they should get shifted out to the rest of the universe and become available on a reseller side. This does not happen, because players buy in Jita for their personal use. That is all fine, but its a flaw that arises mainly because there is the lack of possibility to seriously consider making a reseller system

My suggestion about removing the order cap is mainly about making this reseller option widely available. This has nothing to do with my personal play style as such. I personally just find it extremely inefficient and problematic that there is no option to supply regional services. Whether your a mission runner that wants to sell at your mission station, or a miner that wants to sell in your local station, or even a producer that wants to buy minerals for production at your local station. The problem is all from the same missing feature. There is not option atm for all these assets to be resold and bought locally. That would be way more convinient for all types of players, and would bring about a lot of new oppertune market dynamics. There would be "compartmentalization" in local areas. This would bring a lot of price differences that could be profit creating for many different styles of gameplay

A nice side effect from this would be the really huge potential of market and price related differences between high sec and low and null sec. In short smaller economies would grow up and make things seem faster. You would start focusing more on your local area and territorialism would come from this

Why is it not a bots dream. Well this is not meant to be about solving the bot problem, I just pointed out that with this the playing field would become more level with humans. There is no final solution to botting. With an unlimited amount of outstanding orders and contracts and a limitation on number of changes per day, or a dynamic price system to broker fees the bots would have little advantage over players. My suggestion was to just turn things upside down and limit to injections per day, it is important to note that all quick sell and quick buy and even cancellations would not cost any units, since the injections was only applied to creation of a new broker contract. It would motivate players that wanted to be into contracts or scc market to actually train their skills and not simply flip the same 50 orders

EVE needs a better spread economy, the only way that can arise is if this barrier is removed. That would bring a lot more assets from hangar floors and wallets into play. This whole thing is merely a suggestion to an easy fix, ideally we need a rather huge market oriented upgrade, but that is not very likely to happen, since shooting things make a lot better sales videos, then a few graphs from the market screen

EVE is not comparable with any other games, and the main reason is the player versus player aspects, being fully integrated. A limitation like the one on orders and contracts is counter productive to the goal of creating a fully fledged sandbox economy. The only reason for keeping this would be server strain, that seemed one of the main reasons to bring it in originally. The thing is servers would be strained less with a change like this, since most activity would move to database size increase and a lot less client to server interactions.

This little gem has gotten zero attention in this thread. The idea of attaching standings with contracts in some fashion.
Of course, why stop at contracts. I like the idea of - having the option - not buying/selling from someone that is a Red Contact.

Personally, this seems like it would be a computational nightmare keeping track of that for every contract and market order, and the boycotted/embargoed player would have a nice friendly OOC alt buy the goods anyways.


Ah, but dreaming is so much a part of the fun of EVE.

The idea that it would be for Corporate/Alliance order(s) only, has merit. It would be an advantage for being a corps member, this is an MMO after all.

... And yes, I know the desire every market person would have...

I am still pondering the implications; ie the ability to set "sale prices" for folks with good standings, or even selling directly to corps members at discounts and save on the accounting, etc. Example: Two sales orders one for the general public - at normal price - and one discounted for corps members. All the accounting would be done by using the existing systems. Obviously, the same would hold for buy orders.

This should also enable buying from friends - without having to use contracts. This is something I have always wanted. Click the setting - good standings only - I am buying/selling from friends, or leave it to public and I see all available to me.

I am not sold on the merits of #1 and #2, the jury is still out on thoses - though I do recognize the huge implications.

But, thanks for making me think!

Well Johnny if you look at the above explaining, then it should be clear that my intention is not only focused on my personal isk making. This is a matter of importance to all types of play style

You say that travel and logistics is not a problem in EVE atm. I would seriously disagree. You can hardly equip a decent ship anywhere but in hubs. The prices on most items buy and sell is often in the griefer ranges. The usage of couriers is limited compared to the population densities, and the only alternatives atm to casual courier contracts is Red Frog and the likes. In short shipping is not yet the huge business it should be. We have all the tool, the freighter sizes, the protection arrangement option, even the actual contract system is pretty decent now. What we dont have is the option to have a lot of seeding of "ad hoc" shipping contracts. I will agree that most freight should only be when more then half the volume is used, but for this to get really effective we need more smaller orders. This is basically a wish for the tool that makes "interbus" automated freight possible. Ideally you should become able to easily fill a freighter or industrial with courier contracts from any populated system, at almost all times. Yes I am asking for something that will fill the server db with even more contracts, but as mentioned the search tools are really good now, and this would not cause to much strain. A 5-10 minutes delay to get the most recent data would be acceptable

To the question why is EVE central hub oriented

The reason there is a problem is because all hubs should mainly be a buyers market. So there would be hardly any stockpiles of materials, since that would be spread out to the resell areas. The price of say TRT should ALWAYs be the lowest in a region, the opposite seem to often be the case. This is because we dont have the number of traders and the infinite orders option atm. There is no Orange Juice or Gold at the COMEX market, its being traded there and sold at locations that need it. Ideally we should end up with a situation where we actually have no stock of anything in Jita, but everything is resold where people actually do the work. This can only be achieved if the limitation to contracts and orders are removed or greatly increased. I have presented a few ideas to how this could work, even mentioned one that uses consumables in the form of LP oriented vouchers, much like Starbase charters. I think that would be the most effective one, since it would introduce a new gameplay and market. The agent type that could grant these would ideally be neutral bodies and preferably the scc and maybe banks

This is not about how hard or easy it is to be a trader. The lack of margins at hubs is natural, hub should be oriented towards "speculation" on everyday balance there should be very little profit. This is maybe my key point, that profit belongs where people are working, not in hubs. The exception would be special services like bulk trade and packages of items

The microbid issue is covered pretty well in the above. The same reply as before, the problem is that such bids would not exist in an effective market. Its become a stupid game mechanic that for some strange reason people like.. Bid wars would still be in a more realistic market, they would just make more sense and not be the "queue skipping" that we see in EVE

There is a low population density in EVE, that is true. It is also why there is a need of central hubs, and why they develop naturally. I agree with you on that, my point is that you should still be able to pay more and move less. In short spreading out assets and stockpiles to the whole universe. I will expect you to counter with another of those catch 22 arguments. There are high densities because there is service and there is service because there is high density. This is very true, I am only asking for a way to give people the option to not focus in the same locations. The features needed for that is the ones mentioned

Again I am not merely focused on one thing, I am trying to show a combo of things that would benefit the gameplay in general

The history of Jita is not a natural one, it was the result of many factors, that all came from ccp. One major one being the removal of the highways. Second was agents and introduction and changes to production

The reasons people huddle around the hubs is because there is too long lines of supply and to poor logistics to service alternatives. The two best tools to fix that is an efficient market, where buyers/investors make liquidity available, and an effecient player driven shipping business. These two services are in EVE, I dont deny that, I am only saying they are artificially slowed down with the limitations (barriers of entry) that exist in form of skill limited contracts and orders. With a removal of that cap you would see a lot of speed enter the general gameplay

I did not digress, its part of a whole.

This is all connected to how to motivate more interesting activities. Especially territorial-ism, and incentives to spread out from hubs. The more players are dependent on a set of locations the less likely they will be to venture out and explore other areas

Just to answer what the problem is again

In real life business goes where people are, not the other way around. The Jita trade is monopolistic in the same way as Wall Mart and the likes. Natural development of this is fine, but not when its promoted by making alternatives impossible. Removal of this limit is vital, if we want a more variable market, with interesting locations and price differences

The 3 suggestions are all about more liberal markets and player to player interactions. Giving players the tools to create content, so we dont rely on ccp.

"In real life business goes where people are, not the other way around. The Jita trade is monopolistic in the same way as Wall Mart and the likes. Natural development of this is fine, but not when its promoted by making alternatives impossible. Removal of this limit is vital, if we want a more variable market, with interesting locations and price differences"

The bolded quote is wrong in every single way.

If you don't know what a monopole is that's fine, But don't confuse someone else.

"A monopoly (from Greek monos μόνος (alone or single) + polein πωλεῖν (to sell)) exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity."

How is that, in ANY way, similar to jita?
If anything jita is great MARKET, with MANY vendors, MANY buyers, and the exact opposite of a monopoly situation.

Business follows people, that's the case with jita. and that's how it works in real life.
On the other hand, When you want to buy something from wallmart and wallmart is 50km away from you, You have to drive there Because it won't come to you. Business is where people are, Unfortunetly, not ALL people. And that's my case against your "centralization" problem.

You don't have any more centralization than anciet rhodes had.
it is not controlled by one player, corporation or even alliance. Making your argument invalid.

Why would i want to be a reseller somewhere else from jita if i can move items in jita 10 times faster than anywhere else?
I do not care to service your 30 man solar system with goods from jita, Because no one will buy them, Orders will stale, and people will not return to those systems.

According to your very own statement, Business follows people - If you can somehow change where people go, You can change where the hubs are - Perfect example is dodixie, it's slowly dying due to mission runners leaving it, Less trafic, Higher margins on buy/sell, It will eventually be another Oursulaert. - Markets are acting like markets should act, I still don't see a problem.