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Faction, deadspace, officer weapons - T2 if appropriate skills!
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Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-04-13 16:12:47 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
I know it won't bring the price down
What it does is raise the utility
If something is more useful, people are more likely to purchase it

Then we may actually see these faction items move on the market in comparable volume to other faction items, rather than in miniscule amounts now, as vanity items.


raising the utility doesn't address the problem of tag structure which is the driving force of these "vanity only" prices
It will simply move to selling only the now buffed guns and not the modules that are currently being sold.

seriously, read post 59 again and ask yourself, where are the major costs in this module.
hell any faction gun module can be taken as an example.

This whole thread is looking only at the modules individually, and not the market as a whole, people didn't choose tracking computers and sebos because they were pretty, they chose them because they are utility for everyone. Medium Gallente railguns are not. because the costs are the same in LP and tags, the item that represents a better universal value will be the one thats more often sold.

I am sure that more frigates would equip Federation navy light neutrons if the cost wast 20x times the hull cost for one gun alone. this cost is not LP cost, its not pure isk cost, The sole reason that These weapons are so much on the market is because they share the same tag requirements with 17 other items, 2 of which Sensor booster and Tracking computer, retail at 150 , and 335 respectively.

The Tag which is the bottleneck in question here is the " Caldari Navy Captain Insignia III " which alone retails for approx 4 million.

now in a toss up (seeing as how they require the exact same amounts of lp, isk and tags) which would you rather sell?

fix the tag structure of LP stores, and this entire problem, (guns not selling) goes away. Why is a frigate blaster module competing with a every ship module ?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-04-13 17:19:04 UTC
The problem with faction guns have nothing to do with the cost, although CCP did set them to cost much more that T2.

The problem is that they are WORSE than T2.

For every other item in Eve, Faction modules are better than T2 with the exception of weapons.

Why is that?


A simple solution is just to apply (weapon) specialization to all weapons of that type.

Large blaster specialization would apply 2% bonus to all large blasters T1/T2/Faction/Officer.

T2 ammo types would be reserved for T2 weapons.

So just like all other modules T2 is the skill intensive low cost option, Faction/Officer would be the "pimp" option.

-FM
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#23 - 2012-04-13 17:25:19 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
The problem with faction guns have nothing to do with the cost, although CCP did set them to cost much more that T2.

CCP didn't "set" them to anything, you seem to be failing to understand the concept of a player driven economy.

Fango Mango wrote:
For every other item in Eve, Faction modules are better than T2 with the exception of weapons.

Why is that?

Because allowing faction guns to be better than T2 would make skills largely redundant, and probably encourage dumbass care bears to spend plex to buy faction guns because they can't wait a month. Then they'd lose them and cry.

Not to mention the fact that you would dramatically increase demand, without increasing supply at all. Instantly rendering faction guns outside the price range of newbies, which seems to be who they are intended for anyway.

Fango Mango wrote:
So just like all other modules T2 is the skill intensive low cost option, Faction/Officer would be the "pimp" option.

-FM

Officer is the pimp option.

Faction doesn't always just mean better, sometimes it's just lower CPU/PG usage, other times it just means it doesn't require the T2 skills to use. If you want T2 bonuses on them, you're going to have to make it a prerequisite to using them. Which just isn't consistent with anything else in Eve.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-04-13 17:27:27 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
The problem with faction guns have nothing to do with the cost, although CCP did set them to cost much more that T2.

The problem is that they are WORSE than T2.

For every other item in Eve, Faction modules are better than T2 with the exception of weapons.

Why is that?


A simple solution is just to apply (weapon) specialization to all weapons of that type.

Large blaster specialization would apply 2% bonus to all large blasters T1/T2/Faction/Officer.

T2 ammo types would be reserved for T2 weapons.

So just like all other modules T2 is the skill intensive low cost option, Faction/Officer would be the "pimp" option.

-FM




wut?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1124348#post1124348

it is only after spec 3-4 ? that t2 become "better" and thats what? 2 months + of training? Large turrets can be train in what, a week?

Joran Dravius wrote:
Faction mods allow you to substitute ISK for SP. I'm pretty sure that was intentional.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-04-13 17:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
I agree that the tag and LP store needs to be reworked - this is a major part of the problem.

But the fact remains that faction guns are the only class of faction items that are inferior to their T2 counterparts.
If the tag problem is fixed, there guns still won't move much on the market.

How about this: Faction Scorch/Null/Barrage - just like normal scorch/null/barrage, except more expensive and you don't need T2 skills to load it in your faction guns.
- And of course, its a lot more expensive than the T2 ammo
- Unlike other faction ammo which is 15% better (at least for empire), this faction ammo is actually worse than T2 (but for hybrids and lasers, uses less cap)

Take scorch for example, instead of doing "gamma" level damage with a +50% range bonus, you only do "X ray" level damage with a 50% range bonus


Simi Kusoni wrote:
Because allowing faction guns to be better than T2 would make skills largely redundant, and probably encourage dumbass care bears to spend plex to buy faction guns because they can't wait a month. Then they'd lose them and cry.

The EVE economy feeds on the tears of dumbass carebears, no?
Skills wouldn't be redundant, as the premise here is that the T2 skills apply to the faction guns.
If one has T2 guns, and another has faction guns but no skills to use T2 guns, the T2 guns win.
The faction would only win when skills were equal.


Quote:
Not to mention the fact that you would dramatically increase demand, without increasing supply at all. Instantly rendering faction guns outside the price range of newbies, which seems to be who they are intended for anyway.

For now, that demand is really the insignia III demand, so you need to consider the total demand for those tags, and I don't think the added demand is going to push the price all that much higher.
Maybe it will double, so what? that means more ISK to be had for those producing them
Quade Warren
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-04-13 17:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Quade Warren
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Fango Mango wrote:
The problem with faction guns have nothing to do with the cost, although CCP did set them to cost much more that T2.

CCP didn't "set" them to anything, you seem to be failing to understand the concept of a player driven economy.


You are correct, they did not set the price, but they do set a floor price on many items, if not all. This means that the player driven economy has to work off a baseline at all times.

It is not like minimum wage in that people can sell under the price, but the baseline does give incentive to sell at or around that price.


Edit: Weird, kept removing the ends of the quote tag.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-04-13 17:46:07 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
I agree that the tag and LP store needs to be reworked - this is a major part of the problem.

But the fact remains that faction guns are the only class of faction items that are inferior to their T2 counterparts.
If the tag problem is fixed, there guns still won't move much on the market.

For now, that demand is really the insignia III demand, so you need to consider the total demand for those tags, and I don't think the added demand is going to push the price all that much higher.
Maybe it will double, so what? that means more ISK to be had for those producing them



LP store rework with tag distribution changes
~helps lower prices of current nonused mod to affordable levels.
~demand of Captain III is unimportant for frigate sized modules. ect for other guns vs webs/magstabs/gyros/bcu etc.


1. In what way are they inferior to t2? when do they become inferior to t2 weapons?
2. what makes you think that they will not sell in the event they become affordable and inline with other gun costs?
3. in the event that faction guns get even better, and the LP store does not get reworked, why do you believe taht they will be anything other then vanity items after the rework? the added demand and cost alone will keep them out of the hands of practically everyone. as the demand for the other modules doesn't go away.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-04-13 18:00:43 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
I agree that the tag and LP store needs to be reworked - this is a major part of the problem.

But the fact remains that faction guns are the only class of faction items that are inferior to their T2 counterparts.
If the tag problem is fixed, there guns still won't move much on the market.

For now, that demand is really the insignia III demand, so you need to consider the total demand for those tags, and I don't think the added demand is going to push the price all that much higher.
Maybe it will double, so what? that means more ISK to be had for those producing them



LP store rework with tag distribution changes
~helps lower prices of current nonused mod to affordable levels.
~demand of Captain III is unimportant for frigate sized modules. ect for other guns vs webs/magstabs/gyros/bcu etc.


1. In what way are they inferior to t2? when do they become inferior to t2 weapons?

For Non-Caldari, their DPS is lower at Spec level 3, and they do not get a boost to range/tracking over T2.
Once you have the skills to use T2, they do more damage what 8 hours of training later. No one that use can use T2 will use faction.
Non-Caldari faction weapons are ONLY Useful till you reach T2 skills. This means they need to be affordable by new players (maybe 2-3x the cost of T2) OR they need to be better than T2 (like EVERY OTHER faction module in the game).

Quote:

2. what makes you think that they will not sell in the event they become affordable and inline with other gun costs?


Because there is no price that you can set non-caldari faction weapons at that will make them more attractive that T2. The only people that will use them are new players that haven't trained up skills yet.

Quote:

3. in the event that faction guns get even better, and the LP store does not get reworked, why do you believe taht they will be anything other then vanity items after the rework? the added demand and cost alone will keep them out of the hands of practically everyone. as the demand for the other modules doesn't go away.


They would be used on expensive sub caps just like other deadspace/faction mods are today. This is how they should be used. Today they are not even used for this purpose because they are worse than T2 (unlike EVERY OTHER faction module in the game)
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#29 - 2012-04-13 18:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Faction weapons have way better fitting, and in some cases are actually better then T2 when both are using faction ammo, especially if you don't have the specialization skill trained that high.

In exchange for better fitting, lower skill requirements, and nearly as good damage (some times better), you loose the ability to use t2 ammo and the benefit of the specialization skill, seems fair to me.


So why do other faction modules have better fitting and better stats in every single case other than guns? Should we nerf other faction mods?
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-04-13 18:48:33 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:

For Non-Caldari, their DPS is lower at Spec level 3, and they do not get a boost to range/tracking over T2.
Once you have the skills to use T2, they do more damage what 8 hours of training later. No one that use can use T2 will use faction.
Non-Caldari faction weapons are ONLY Useful till you reach T2 skills. This means they need to be affordable by new players (maybe 2-3x the cost of T2) OR they need to be better than T2 (like EVERY OTHER faction module in the game).

Because there is no price that you can set non-caldari faction weapons at that will make them more attractive that T2. The only people that will use them are new players that haven't trained up skills yet.

They would be used on expensive sub caps just like other deadspace/faction mods are today. This is how they should be used. Today they are not even used for this purpose because they are worse than T2 (unlike EVERY OTHER faction module in the game)


so for everything up to spec 3 the caldari ones are better then t2 ? or do you mean that all non caldari guns are better then caldari guns, and even those are only useful up to point x.
at say large hybrid 4, are they better then all other available guns (other then officers)
arent they easier to fit? lower pg/cpy or have other bonuses like matched dps /tracking with base t2 stats?

Why are a relative low skill requirement weapon supposed to be endgame?

~
I deleted my quote in between 1 and 2 there, because i felt it necessary to point out you have stated a price point you feel is justifiable for faction guns, and then stated that faction guns arent ever going to be attractive no matter what the price.

Today they are used like deadspace on ships, specialty weapons to go on factioned out ships, more for show then for use.

However, i used to use shadow serpentis 425mm rails (when they were 50 each) on my kronos, simply because i didnt have large hybrids to 5 yet, they have their niche, and its only the tag costs that keep them from being where they should be not a lack of power or requirements.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-04-13 20:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Fango Mango
Kusum Fawn wrote:


so for everything up to spec 3 the caldari ones are better then t2 ? or do you mean that all non caldari guns are better then caldari guns, and even those are only useful up to point x.
at say large hybrid 4, are they better then all other available guns (other then officers)
arent they easier to fit? lower pg/cpy or have other bonuses like matched dps /tracking with base t2 stats?


Learn the different faction weapons systems before you jump into a conversation about faction weapon systems.

Caldari Navy Launchers do more damage than T2 (even a specialization V)
Caldari Rail guns have much longer range than T2 (so they at least have a niche).

I would say the Caldari Faction weapons are "acceptably balanced".

The "non-caladri" weapons turrets/launchers have a problem because they do less than damage than T2 with minimal specialization skills.


Quote:

Why are a relative low skill requirement weapon supposed to be endgame?


You are aware that for every other module in the game faction is better than T2?
Or are you proposing that Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field, be nerfed so that it provides less resistance than a T2 Invul Field because it requires less skills to use?

Faction weapons are higher meta level than T2, cost much more to produce, and therefore should be "better" than T2. Just like all the other faction modules


Quote:

~
I deleted my quote in between 1 and 2 there, because i felt it necessary to point out you have stated a price point you feel is justifiable for faction guns, and then stated that faction guns arent ever going to be attractive no matter what the price.

Today they are used like deadspace on ships, specialty weapons to go on factioned out ships, more for show then for use.


They may mount deadspace/faction modules on ships for show, but those mods ARE BETTER than the T2 version. Just like every other module Faction Weapons *should* be better than T2


Quote:

However, i used to use shadow serpentis 425mm rails (when they were 50 each) on my kronos, simply because i didnt have large hybrids to 5 yet, they have their niche, and its only the tag costs that keep them from being where they should be not a lack of power or requirements.


Did you even read what my proposal was?
It was to have the weapons specialization skill affect all weapons of that type T1/T2/Faction/Deadspace.
Noobs that hadn't learned specialization skills could still use Faction weapons with the same DPS as they could today. High skill vets could ALSO use faction weapons because they would still be more powerful than T2 (buy 4%).
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-04-13 22:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
I just want to take this opportunity to quote some one very dear to me, and i believe applies to this conversation

Wanda Sikes wrote:
Shiiiieeeeeeeeeeeet


what do you say about shadow serpentis, or because this is very specifically about lp store items, Federation navy rails, (which are identical to Shadow serpentis, the same way that Dread Guristas are identical to Caldari navy weapons systems

I believe that this thread has generally cited faction guns, but ok i agree with you, with every faction weapon being under t2 stats, CN/DG launchers are op no?

or is that not what you were trying to say,


Rein your self back for a second, and try fitting those faction guns for a sec with large gun 4 rather then all 5's, which is where their niche should be. I agree that faction should be the relative novices weapon, but i cant see that happening if the tags arent sorted, even buffing the modules, with the price of the one tag, it wont change that they are priced out of most peoples reach.

I dont think ive said anything about deadspace or officer modules yet in this thread, i might be wrong about that, but ok

some meta 4 are better then t2 and faction and deadspace, I dont know that consistency is really the name of the game here.

faction modules are higher meta t1. t2 modules are meta 5 t2, which is a different scale. t3 items are met o t3,
oh and i meant guns, they mount guns on ships for show.
but there are a few faction modules that are not better then their t2 variants, ice harvesters come to mind , i know that there is at least one more, beyond armor plates, all six of them,

Oh i understand that you want a more powerful gun, i get that i really do, but i would rather have an available gun then a super costly one.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-04-15 14:28:42 UTC
I would say allow the weapon specialisation skill apply too all weapons in that class. T1, T2, Faction/Storyline. Also allow drone specialisation skills apply to their respective drones (T1/T2/ Augmented etc)

Also; as has been stated, review the damn LP stores! They're all to whack.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-04-15 15:47:10 UTC
I've also thought that the spec skills should apply to all of that weapon type, regardless of meta level.

Seems like small pulse laser spec should help all small pulse lasers...
Mirima Thurander
#35 - 2012-04-15 15:51:48 UTC
you do know that CCP put Faction DED and Officer stuff ingame and was llike LOOK COOL LOOT!


and then added t2 stuff, and if someone had thought up the lets make thos cool faction guns use t2 ammo as well.

they would all be shoot t2 ammo.

but look at it this way, LOLOLOLOL LORE/RP


"Why would the factions gimp them selfs by not upgrading to the new T2 tec?"




look at the R&D in the world right now,

development stage

testing stage

given to spec op teams AKA navy seals and others for evaluation.

adopted by the military for standard issue.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#36 - 2012-04-15 17:04:41 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
you do know that CCP put Faction DED and Officer stuff ingame and was llike LOOK COOL LOOT!


and then added t2 stuff, and if someone had thought up the lets make thos cool faction guns use t2 ammo as well.

they would all be shoot t2 ammo.

but look at it this way, LOLOLOLOL LORE/RP


"Why would the factions gimp them selfs by not upgrading to the new T2 tec?"




look at the R&D in the world right now,

development stage

testing stage

given to spec op teams AKA navy seals and others for evaluation.

adopted by the military for standard issue.


Justifying game mechanics with RP, gtfo.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
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