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Faction Weapons should benefit from specialization skills.
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Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#1 - 2012-04-10 22:43:58 UTC
After a wasted expense, I realized that faction weapons do not benefit from specialization skills (derp). However, why is this? This has probably been mentioned before.

I know this calls into question the entire premise of the faction system, but why should t2's ever do more damage than faction? They cost upwards of 30 times more isk than t2's, and you get fitting bonuses? It seems like this current layout only benefits rich players who don't want to take the time to train, and that's a very low portion.


Thoughts/Criticisms?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2012-04-10 22:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Dude. Your threads.

Ok, I'll play this one too. Faction guns are kind of a mixed bag. As you noted, they do slightly more damage up until spec 3, where they are overtaken by T2 guns. However, they sometimes have significant ancillary benefits of clip size (can be useful on occasion I guess), lower fitting (marginally useful, especially for tight PvE fits), and cap use (immensely useful if you're talking about tachyon beams). Their drawback, other than lower damage, is that they can't use T2 ammunition and are limited to T1/faction.

Faction launchers are more situationally useful. Rather than directly increasing damage the way faction guns do, they increase RoF (as do the launcher spec skills). However, good faction launchers will always have a higher RoF than T2 launchers at spec 5 -- and they have a higher capacity on top of that. So firing the same missiles, faction launchers always do more damage. T2 launchers of course retain the advantage of being able to fire T2 missiles, which is critical for unguided missiles and at least useful for guided missiles. So there's a real choice to be had there.

As to why? Because the spec skills are designed to work with T2. There's really nothing more to it. Faction offers an option for lower skilled players and allows tight fitting that otherwise wouldn't work -- that's the advantage.

Edit: as for that wasted expense: sell them. It's not like they depreciate. All you've done is limited your liquidity for a time.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#3 - 2012-04-10 22:55:15 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Dude. Your threads.

Ok, I'll play this one too. Faction guns are kind of a mixed bag. As you noted, they do slightly more damage up until spec 3, where they are overtaken by T2 guns. However, they sometimes have significant ancillary benefits of clip size (can be useful on occasion I guess), lower fitting (marginally useful, especially for tight PvE fits), and cap use (immensely useful if you're talking about tachyon beams). Their drawback, other than lower damage, is that they can't use T2 ammunition and are limited to T1/faction.

Faction launchers are more situationally useful. Rather than directly increasing damage the way faction guns do, they increase RoF (as do the launcher spec skills). However, good faction launchers will always have a higher RoF than T2 launchers at spec 5 -- and they have a higher capacity on top of that. So firing the same missiles, faction launchers always do more damage. T2 launchers of course retain the advantage of being able to fire T2 missiles, which is critical for unguided missiles and at least useful for guided missiles. So there's a real choice to be had there.

As to why? Because the spec skills are designed to work with T2. There's really nothing more to it. Faction offers an option for lower skilled players and allows tight fitting that otherwise wouldn't work -- that's the advantage.

Edit: as for that wasted expense: sell them. It's not like they depreciate. All you've done is limited your liquidity for a time.


Sorry I tend to be this way on every game. And i'm aware i can see it for the same price. But shouldn't the dramatically increased price give me a bigger damage increase?

I.E. Would you be against specializations benefiting faction? (You probably are) If so, why?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#4 - 2012-04-10 23:06:28 UTC
I'm A-Ok with faction weapons getting the use of the spec skill and being able to use T2 ammo.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#5 - 2012-04-10 23:09:59 UTC
The price is a product of their rarity, not how well they work.

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-04-10 23:18:04 UTC
If they were able to use T2 ammo, it would increase their usage. When was the last time you saw a Fed Navy Blaster of any size on a ship? Any others? This would be a welcome change, IMHO.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#7 - 2012-04-10 23:39:29 UTC
Fed Navy blasters using Fed Navy ammo on Fed Navy Comets should get a bonus for being really, really cool.

In general, Faction Navy Modules should get a bonus if they are used on their Faction Navy ships!
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-04-10 23:41:03 UTC
[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=94330&find=unread[/url]
similar thread on the industry side of things.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2012-04-10 23:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Azemar wrote:
Sorry I tend to be this way on every game. And i'm aware i can see it for the same price. But shouldn't the dramatically increased price give me a bigger damage increase?

It depends on the market. T2 equipment can be built pretty much anywhere you can get the supplies, faction equipment only comes from LP stores and some plexes... which leads to lower prices for T2 stuff... there is also the fact that Faction guns are not as good as T2 guns... so less people get them and/or sell them... leading to lower supply... etc.

Oh yeah... bigger and more expensive is not always better.

Azemar wrote:
Would you be against specializations benefiting faction? (You probably are) If so, why?

Why would you want limit a person to just one racial ship line because they happened to like the looks of a certain toon? And yes it would limit what ships you could fly because min/maxers would take full advantage of this and stomp all over people who didn't.

How did you Veterans start?
Kolya Medz
Kolya Inc.
#10 - 2012-04-11 00:19:45 UTC
However, making them just as good as tech II seems like a bad idea. The already have easier fitting and use less capacitor. Giving them the same or better dps than tech II just makes tech II obsolete. (And of course, make faction weapons even more pricey.)

They should be cheaper however, no more than 3 to 4 times as expensive as their tech II counterparts.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#11 - 2012-04-11 00:23:00 UTC
Kolya Medz wrote:
However, making them just as good as tech II seems like a bad idea. The already have easier fitting and use less capacitor. Giving them the same or better dps than tech II just makes tech II obsolete. (And of course, make faction weapons even more pricey.)

They should be cheaper however, no more than 3 to 4 times as expensive as their tech II counterparts.



Well it would be impossible to make them that without dramatically increasing their drop rate.

Honestly, I do not think it would impact tech II at all if the rarity remained the same. The only real difference would be that the players who could afford 8x 150 mil turrets would actually use them.
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-04-11 00:32:44 UTC
>Faction weapons for low skilled characters

LOL

Bring the price down if they're supposed to be for noobies

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Marsan
#13 - 2012-04-11 01:03:49 UTC
I don't think people understand how prices work in this game. Prices are set by players. Both the sellers and buyers. Given the high price of these items it's clear they work just fine as they are. Personally I always use tech 2 use I have a fitting issue.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Annie Anomie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-04-11 01:11:15 UTC
No.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#15 - 2012-04-11 02:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
Marsan wrote:
I don't think people understand how prices work in this game. Prices are set by players. Both the sellers and buyers. Given the high price of these items it's clear they work just fine as they are. Personally I always use tech 2 use I have a fitting issue.



That's both true and not. If CCP dramatically increases the drop rate (let's say they make every single faction mob drop a faction weapon), then the price goes down. Sure the players make it, but do they really have a say? It's just simply predictable human nature.


Aranakas wrote:
>Faction weapons for low skilled characters

LOL

Bring the price down if they're supposed to be for noobies



Exactly my point. If high SP players dont use them because they have the fitting skills and specialization skills, and new players cant possibly have the isk to buy them, then who the hell is even using them?
Jace81
Sacred Sacrifice
Absolute Will
#16 - 2012-04-11 03:50:54 UTC
Play with EFT and you will see why some use faction when they have T2 skills Faction makes things flexible These are extreme examples but I think you may see the point Cool

[Dominix, faction]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner

Federation Navy Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Federation Navy Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Federation Navy Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Federation Navy Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Federation Navy Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Federation Navy Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I

11635 power used 571 CPU Cap 25 minutes 48 seconds

[Dominix, T2 1000dps no drones possible?]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
100MN Digital Booster Rockets
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Ancillary Current Router I

12608 power used 687 CPU Cap 1minutes 46 seconds
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-04-11 03:55:52 UTC
i still have my full faction fit drake from back in the day when i was running lvl3s with ~2mil SP. i got no friend invite and never payed real money for a PLEX. faction weapons above frigate size are not too expensive unless you are too stupid or too lazy to find out how to make money.

I should buy an Ishtar.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#18 - 2012-04-11 04:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
No, I don't think you understand how Eve works. Faction weapons offer improved ability over T1, but at a price. They are a way for wealthy younger players to get good performance at an increased ISK cost. They have easier fitting requirements, or cap use, which makes them easier for characters without perfect fitting/core skills. If you got the benefit of the same damage, with less cap use, or easier fitting, at a lower skill point requirement, it would just make expensive high SP fits even more OP in favor of wealthy, high SP min/maxers.

Edit - ISK cost alone is not a good balancing mechanism. See: Supercarriers and Titans.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#19 - 2012-04-11 04:46:10 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
No, I don't think you understand how Eve works. Faction weapons offer improved ability over T1, but at a price. They are a way for wealthy younger players to get good performance at an increased ISK cost. They have easier fitting requirements, or cap use, which makes them easier for characters without perfect fitting/core skills. If you got the benefit of the same damage, with less cap use, or easier fitting, at a lower skill point requirement, it would just make expensive high SP fits even more OP in favor of wealthy, high SP min/maxers.

Edit - ISK cost alone is not a good balancing mechanism. See: Supercarriers and Titans.


Suddenly Caldari Navy Invulns, DG Boosters, and FN webs make so much more sense. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#20 - 2012-04-11 05:40:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
No, I don't think you understand how Eve works. Faction weapons offer improved ability over T1, but at a price. They are a way for wealthy younger players to get good performance at an increased ISK cost. They have easier fitting requirements, or cap use, which makes them easier for characters without perfect fitting/core skills. If you got the benefit of the same damage, with less cap use, or easier fitting, at a lower skill point requirement, it would just make expensive high SP fits even more OP in favor of wealthy, high SP min/maxers.

Edit - ISK cost alone is not a good balancing mechanism. See: Supercarriers and Titans.


Suddenly Caldari Navy Invulns, DG Boosters, and FN webs make so much more sense. Roll

-Liang


With tiericide litteraly around the corner (CCP trackrecord says this = it might never happen) they have said they view the progression as: Tech 1, faction, T2, Pirate.

In this sense I wont be that surprised if they make it 425 Proto rails < CN 425 rails < 425II rail < DG 425 rail, and a way to do tha would be to extend specialization skils as a benefit AND a requirement for DG rails etc.

This would be a nice twist but the most priceless part would be the faces of the duded with CN Invulns now worth 50 mill and DG Launchers that turn offline on them deep in 0.0 backyards. LolLolLolLol

In any event it would be a way to accomplish what OP and Liang (differently) suggest...
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