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Discussion Thread: CSM Statement regarding CCP refocusing

First post
Author
Crusa Alearf
Avon Cosmetics
#101 - 2011-09-24 21:46:10 UTC
We definetely need a dedicated balance team. I can't believe there isn't one! All this balance stuff has been going on for forever (and it will still continue even with the team). But hopefully the team could improve on the current state of things!
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2011-09-24 22:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Swooshie wrote:
Guys, be careful here tho. You are creating a perfect excuse for CCP to blame the next fail on (if fail there is), it wouldn't take a long stretch to blame the CSM for false aim of focus.

I will admit, however, that the CSM moves, right now scream political capital and future votes.

There can not be fail if they follow crowdsourcing as their primary objective and do some important sideprojects of "their own" in the background. Some people obviously will not get what they want and will be unhappy to the things listed in crowdsourcing. These people however are the ones who would complain most likely about anything what isn't something they want. Voting works in real world and it works in the game also as long enough information is handed out and made sure that people know about what they are voting.

Obviously people who care about something will vote. However to make sure to get wide enough spread of voters, voting should be advertised and perhaps even rewarded somehow. There is always the silent majority who doesn't really care and won't vote. It is perfectly ok as they are the people who also adapt the best - or perhaps become active voters next time.

Aim of focus doesn't mean that CCP would have their hands tied. It just means that players get at least something important to them and game keeps evolving to the direction where the playerbase is willing it to go. If CCP thinks that incarna is their thing - they keep doing it. It is not a problem as long the main focus is on stuff what people actually value.

There is no way to please everyone right away, but if we take 10 yeard period of development, the potential truely could be something epic. Just focus on the content, don't be afraid to rewrite old code to make it better, improve graphics when possible, but don't do that to hide crap content. Rewritten old content with new features can be better crowdpleaser than some totally new feature what looks good but has no use to anyone.

This game has been under testing since 2003. Old forums are full of suggestions and long articles howto improve eve. There is more documentation and research about existing features than any manager could wish for. It is like golden plate full of win waiting for someone to come and loot. Usually companies pay top dollar to gain such information, but perhaps in here that has become too obvious thing to notice.

This is a game - it may be serious business but people still play it to enjoy themselves - give them stuff to enjoy and they stay.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#103 - 2011-09-25 10:39:46 UTC
CCP must not let WiS stale in half finished state either. Now they started with it, they must continue and give us establishments.

DUST is bound to be released. Unfortunately, The Great Link is still very obscure, yet - as Torfi said - only an all-out integration of both games will implement the promise. I also think that only player-driven conflict will keep DUST successful and players interested versus the vast market of similar IPs.


With that baggage on their back, how many devs and artists are free to be reassigned to FiS ?


Maybe, with some luck, CCP will allow themselves and us the luxury topick one old rotten feature for iteration. It must be one only so it be good when it's winter expansion time. One shiny one that Marketing will be able to sell as if it were new. One that bugs players so much at its current state that they will go out and tell the story to every interested pilot how awesome EVE has turned out to be.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#104 - 2011-09-25 11:49:59 UTC
Crusa Alearf wrote:
We definetely need a dedicated balance team. I can't believe there isn't one! All this balance stuff has been going on for forever (and it will still continue even with the team). But hopefully the team could improve on the current state of things!



This would prove far more productive then the CSM.

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ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#105 - 2011-09-25 11:52:11 UTC
CCP isn't developing this game for us, the players. We are just a convenient tool for sending them money. They develop their game... THEIR game... for the Industry. They do it for their ego. They do it to make video's, get interviewed by Industry journalists, win Awards, and put on Fan Fest's. And the root of their motivation for making Eve Online is to make a paycheck. I am sure that some CCP employee's do want to make a fun game, but this is secondary to the important things.

There has been exactly ONE, in the history of MMO's, ONE game developed where the Dev team paid more than casual interest in what the players wanted. This game is also dying. And yet, as it peaks and begins a slow decline, millions of players are still sending in their subscription fee's. Why? Because the Dev's did pay a little more attention to what their paying user's wanted. Not totally, but a lot more than CCP. Or any other MMO out there. They were rewarded for this (and other decisions maximizing their appeal like hardware platforms, easy "career paths", low barrier to entry, etc) by becoming an Industry juggernaut. And I only joined after my game of choice finally got too bad to play anymore (that other sci-Fi MMO). And I only played long enough to understand the game, and gladly quit.

CCP need's to give players what they want, even if CCP doesn't agree with it. They need to stop developing for their ego, and they need to give up the idea that (whispers) "If we make it, they will come!" No, CCP, you don't know what is best for us. You don't know better than us what is fun for us. We won't be glad that you have shown us what we *should* think is fun. And we don't care about how many journalists are knocking on your door to interview you, or how many personal assistants you have. We want you to fix the game. Fix it!

The PR machine is humming along smoothly. That's all we are hearing. The CSM system is just another branch of the Company PR apparatus. As long as they are under an NDA, we can't trust them. As long as CCP has to "approve" the statements of the CSM, we can't trust them. It's just smoke and mirrors to distract us from the fact that CCP isn't doing what is best for US. They are doing what's best for themselves.
trexinatux
Doomheim
#106 - 2011-09-25 12:01:11 UTC
CCP we need more polish on FIS.
Please add:

1. More better Sexy Interactive GUI w/ more audio queues. - Attract everyone. Roll
2. Reduce the draconian skill training times. - Attract Casuals Lol
3. Add a "CareBear" low risk PvP element. - Attract CareBears to PvP Turn them into CareMonsters Pirate
4. Earning Aurum by doing very difficult things in game. - Attract Grinders Shocked
5. More shiny things to keep me looking at the game instead of browsing forums on the In game browser. - Attract instant gratification crowd. P

Helpless people on subway trains...

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#107 - 2011-09-25 12:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Quote:
CCP isn't doing what is best for US. They are doing what's best for themselves.


It's a company & they are supposed to?



It just so happens that giving the player base what they have been asking for for years, will better their company in profound ways. If only their CEO understood that, but I don't think that he does.


Did you hear him in the alliance tournaments?
He was unable to even name the different ships in "his own" video game. Not necessarily a bad thing, but if he don't get little things like Gallente has RSD, and Amarr has TD, then how can he grasp the nuances that are imported to his player base?

He can't.
& as far as I know there is no "CCP team" present to discern such information, or at the very least, read these forums and bring what people complain about everyday to the folks in charge. The CSM sure as hell isn't doing anything.


Thus, I must assume CCP's CEO is out somewhere buying more pants. After which, upon seeing them... all of his friends will admire him! Because I know I admire people when I see them wearing 1,000 dollar pants! What? Don't you?

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BearUkraine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2011-09-25 13:11:18 UTC
Generally I agree with CSM Statement, but any way I am waiting for Incarna. I think it is nice part of eve world. From my point of view, would be so cool to make something like Mass Effect online, where people can choose themselfs what to do. It can be pew pew inside of station (if I cant take station using ships, why CCP doesnt want to give us possibility to take it by holding a weapon in our avatars' hands?). I would like to have shops, bars, but it doesnt mean that ships not interesting for me any more. It just great opportunity of our choise, like what deside - mission running or exploration or WH? I agree there are problems, but must be clearly defined balance between spending time on the new features and fixing existing code. EVE is the WORLD, UNIVERSE. EVE must be represented from all sides, not just ships.
Eli Strange
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#109 - 2011-09-25 15:31:19 UTC
I enjoyed your post, and I did +1 the post. However, I hope you mean that CCP will reprioritize FIS to the front, and not abandon WIS. I do think they have great potential in WIS, but I do agree that they need to shore up FIS before moving into the flashy content.
Garo Hertee
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#110 - 2011-09-26 10:04:48 UTC
Eli Strange wrote:
I enjoyed your post, and I did +1 the post. However, I hope you mean that CCP will reprioritize FIS to the front, and not abandon WIS. I do think they have great potential in WIS, but I do agree that they need to shore up FIS before moving into the flashy content.


I completely agree. CCP is never going to make everyone happy, especially since we have represented in the playerbase the very extremes of opinion from "You've been promising WiS for years, give it to us now" to "This is a FiS game and time spent on anything else is a total waste." The key is balance.

For good or ill, WiS is now with us. Personally I looked at it for a whole 10 minutes then elected to turn it off. Why? It's eye candy and it's nice but there's no actual gameplay in it for now. For now. As far as I can determine, this is what was intended of this first release, a stepping stone to getting beyond the door to establishments and having some gameplay in WiS. Personally, I'm still hopeful, although I like the feature mentioned in the recent devblog to choose whether to stay in your ship or enter your CQ when you dock. That's at least a nod to those who have no interest in WiS.

While I agree with the CSM's statement in general, I think that now WiS is a game feature, it should continue to be worked on. It shouldn't be worked on to the exclusion of everything else and I understand it isn't. It looks to an outsider as if it is currently the main thrust. The problems with FiS and other game mechanics have been with us for much longer and maybe they should be the main thrust instead for a time. Balance. Don't stop WiS development but downgrade it.

In my opinion, the reason this has come to a head is that the balance has been wrong for a number of years. I like the stuff CCP have been doing but I think it has been done in the wrong proportions. To correct a problem which has been rollercoasting along for that long will take some drastic action now, but it should be a temporary course correction. Don't consider any new features right now, focus on fixing existing content and iterating on shiny new content which was previously released. At a later stage, start to put some resources back into new features again. This I believe is the way to win back the respect of the players and see healthier trends in subscription numbers.

As for crowdsourcing, the most recent one was the first I had taken part in. I don't think anyone is selling it as being perfect, but it is a useful tool, which will become more useful if more people take part. Maybe I'm just thick but I had to read the voting instructions twice to figure out how it was being done. Keep this simple to get the best participation. We can all see how the crowdsourcing results can be skewed, CCP and the CSM can see that too. The results are just another feedback method for CCP to take into account in their decision making, not the sole one.

In summary, keep new features out of the picture until the problems with development focus are back on track, a bit less WiS (but not a complete halt), a bit more FiS (fixing long-established problems) and this game should continue to get better and better.

Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#111 - 2011-09-26 13:31:48 UTC
Eli Strange wrote:
I enjoyed your post, and I did +1 the post. However, I hope you mean that CCP will reprioritize FIS to the front, and not abandon WIS. I do think they have great potential in WIS, but I do agree that they need to shore up FIS before moving into the flashy content.


Then you shouldn't have +1 them.
What I read was a general statement that didn't really say anything.

Not enough specifics there.
Which basically invalids the entire thing sadly.

There going to go back to CCP with a general statement that says what ?



Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#112 - 2011-09-26 17:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ugleb
I gave a +1 but have a caveat to it.

CCP need to finish and deploy the first iteration of establishments. Too much effort has gone into Incarna already just to ditch it for the next year or more. Get the first deployment out, some multi-player environments and then let it settle for a deployment cycle with no major additions other than basic tweaks and fixes. Use that time to focus in on traditional EVE mechanics such as the sov system and FW.

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.  Join channel JORIS to learn more!

Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2011-09-26 19:30:29 UTC
Ugleb wrote:
I gave a +1 but have a caveat to it.

CCP need to finish and deploy the first iteration of establishments.

Ugh no they don't. Let them put all that roleplaying crap in the Twilight mmo.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Scorpio Hollanda
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2011-09-27 06:55:15 UTC
I know this horse has been beaten to death, resurrected and beaten to death again, but (you knew it was coming) we ought to do the same for botting? Shouldn't be too hard for CCP to find them, right?
White Tree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2011-09-27 12:32:08 UTC
Check out all these whineposts lmao.

Former member of CSM6.

Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2011-09-27 13:37:08 UTC
White Tree wrote:
Check out all these whineposts lmao.


Oh look! Something constructive and useful from a CSM member! Roll

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#117 - 2011-09-27 14:06:27 UTC
White Tree wrote:
Check out all these whineposts lmao.


You do represent us after all. I hear that all time. So why don't you quit whining?


Temulkar Blaine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2011-09-27 14:11:59 UTC
CSM call us whiners, CCP call us rabble, people are still logging off. The clock is still ticking, nothing has been achieved.

meh.
Patch Gatsby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2011-09-27 16:17:38 UTC
December 20th is now CCPs drop dead date. If things aren't on a path to improvment on the existing content, then large numbers of subscribers will not have any reason not to give that "other" space MMO a chance. The Eve population may dip so low that even if people want to play there will be too few. The game could collapse in a matter of months.
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#120 - 2011-09-27 17:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Erik Finnegan
Some of the "whiners" may have misinterpreted the CSM statement. Problem with the statement is that the CSM is giving you to read what they intend to tell CCP; word by word. But language between players is different than language between CSM and CCP obligatorily has to be -- at least since the CSM talks to CCP's upper management.

I fear there is a language disconnect between the CSM and dear readers. Possibly the CSM should not have players vote on their exact texts, which they then take to CCP. CSM needs to address CCP in terms that CCP is likely to understand and let them influence CCP's position. But if gathering input from the players, maybe a different style of wording would be better understood -- while maintaining the sense of the whole message ?

Semantical tactics aside, I appreciate that the CSM continuously gathers opinion on a broad scale with a multitude of methods.