These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Is P3 pointless for me, or do I suck at math?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
DIsposible Hero
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-04-05 04:36:33 UTC
So some quick math.

Rocket fuel is selling for approximately 9,500 per unit at jita.

Camera drones are selling for approximately 66,000 p/u.

Given that I have access to several planets with an abundant yield of plasmoids and electolytes, I can easily manufacture and sell rocket fuel en-masse, OR I could instead process it into a P3 product, camera drones for instance.

The thing is, the second option doesn't seem to be remotely worthwhile; and its a pattern I've seen for many P3 goods when I crunch the numbers.

If I use four planets to produce the four inputs for camera drones, with a 5th planet for assembly, I'll get 3 units of camera drones out for every 160 units of P1 that go in.

If I use four planets to produce JUST plasmoids and electrolytes, I get 20 units of rocket fuel out for every 160 units of P1 going in.

20 units of rocket fuel sell for 20 x 9,500 = 237,500
3 units of camera drones sell for 3 * 66,000 = 198,000

Of course the other factor is tax. In my current PI system, the tax rate is 5%, so:

Camera drone export tax = 3 * 70,000 * 0.05 = 10,500
Rocket fuel export tax = 20 * 9000 * 0.05 = 9,000

So not only do I get a more valuable product, but I also pay less tax? And spend an hour less to manufacture the goods? I guess my question is; why would I bother with anything else? I know all the cool kids talk about their P3 or P4 production chains, but when I crunch the numbers, it never seems to be worthwhile. Am I missing something here, or is rocket fuel just an exceptionally good P2 product on account of its use in T2 production?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-04-05 05:27:58 UTC
many t3 products are simply not worth the issues since demand is not high enough
Skorpynekomimi
#3 - 2012-04-05 05:36:48 UTC
It all depends on what you're producing, and what it's used for. I make stuff for PoS fuel and T2 production, and that sells really well.
There's practically no use for some products, other than making the advanced commodities used for PI gantries.

Economic PVP
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#4 - 2012-04-05 08:55:41 UTC
All the cool kids do P2 to P4. You must have misunderstood someone. But if you have now some P3 and don't know what with it, then I'll buy it from you below production cost.

Blog | Tutorials | Youtube "I don’t know everything, I just know what I know."
Rengerel en Distel
#5 - 2012-04-05 12:08:49 UTC
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar_YTOcXpvb9dGFIdHJlb0VmYXBORWRrcXFkeHNjcWc#gid=10

Don't forget also to calculate the costs of exporting and importing the goods to your manufacturing planet, which just takes out even more profit. With some items, it actually costs you more to build the items then buying them on the market.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#6 - 2012-04-05 13:25:05 UTC
Generally correct, but....

You can instead buy silicate glass off the market, which has sell orders ~6% below the value of the P1 buy orders used to make it (I have not looked at market history to see if the buy orders are getting filled at -20% of P1 value). This also circumvents the export taxes for the silicate glass (or precursors), although I have not really looked at the finances in detail for camera drones. My question isn't who is making camera drones and why, but who is making silicate glass and why? It is the 2nd biggest P1>P2 conversion loss after G.E. livestock. Silicate glass has risen 22% over the past two or so weeks, just to get to this level of ugly, which makes me think some people are buying glass to produce Camera Drones and/or Necoms.

Other reasons that you might make P3, even if money is similar (or marginally lower):
- Factory planets are low maintenance - no hotspots to worry about.
- Factory planets can also use giant planets more efficiently than extractor setups
- You can distribute your extraction so that you have less of a depletion problem
- Lower end volume for easier transport (60%, I think).

But, yeah, I don't make Camera drones either - Robotics and Smartfabs have worked for me, but both are also down lately (along with most all of PI prices).
lasgal
Xynodyne
The Initiative.
#7 - 2012-04-05 14:25:50 UTC
You suck at math.

20*9,500=190000

DIsposible Hero wrote:


20 units of rocket fuel sell for 20 x 9,500 = 237,500
DIsposible Hero
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-04-05 14:39:09 UTC
lasgal wrote:
You suck at math.

20*9,500=190000

DIsposible Hero wrote:


20 units of rocket fuel sell for 20 x 9,500 = 237,500



Yep, I figured that was the simplest solution. I wish I hadn't thrown that piece of paper away; I don't know how the hell I got 237,500. That, plus the cost to import to the factory planet means camera drones are indeed more worth it.
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#9 - 2012-04-05 15:04:42 UTC
But, with a factory planet, you are only increasing value, not creating it. What if you extracted material and created additional PI on that 5th planet instead of using it as a factory? That should be in the math, as well.
Devan Reale
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-04-05 17:33:51 UTC
There are a number of P3 products, such as Robotics, that are worth it. Something like Rocket Fuel (P2) isn't worth it for me personally, but I do produce it for my own use when the time comes to do T2 missile runs. As with all things Industry, research the markets you want to sell to, and do what makes you the most isk in your wallet.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-04-06 16:49:21 UTC
Devan Reale wrote:
There are a number of P3 products, such as Robotics, that are worth it. Something like Rocket Fuel (P2) isn't worth it for me personally, but I do produce it for my own use when the time comes to do T2 missile runs. As with all things Industry, research the markets you want to sell to, and do what makes you the most isk in your wallet.



In that case you should still produce and sell robotics and use the isk to buy rocket fuel

the pi stuff you extract is not free....
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-04-06 22:54:46 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
the pi stuff you extract is not free....


Why is there someone in every Industry thread that insists on kicking this dead horse?
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-04-06 23:34:27 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
the pi stuff you extract is not free....


Why is there someone in every Industry thread that insists on kicking this dead horse?


kicks are free
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-04-07 03:57:52 UTC
This is just the sort of thing I had wrote my program for (see signature). It factors in the costs and the taxes (even if its a highly convoluted route) and spits out your thesis! profits in an overview, and keeps most of the numbers used on a different tab to prevent eye spirals (eye spirals are caused by looking at too many numbers too quickly). The program also shows your profit margin to help you easily determine if what you're making is worth making.

Asteroid Timer: Know exactly when that roid depletes! PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them!
Jarvin Xadi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-04-07 22:21:54 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
the pi stuff you extract is not free....


Why is there someone in every Industry thread that insists on kicking this dead horse?



Ironic thing is that this is one of the few groups of income generation you can say is "free" as you can get a competitive extraction rate with human interaction at few intervals, and importantly, it does not exclude you from performing another income generating while it is ticking, unlike any other faucet activities. Only other activity that comes to mind that fills all this criteria is datacore production from r&d agents.

On topic, in some cases, due to people not calculating the minimum price they need to sell at to make a profit, that you can not produce an item without makeing a loss on it. Not unique to PI, just something you have to be aware of and steer arround.