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Paladin Help

Author
Lugalzagezi666
#41 - 2011-09-24 10:16:41 UTC
Jorhan Brimve Stahl wrote:
...


I agree with you that 3 tp fit torp golem is most annoying mission ship available - except 4x tp golem with ungrouped launchers of course. Lol

But nightmare will ALWAYS have better kill speed than paladin if both are fitted for max gank, just because it has 1 more offensive bonus and 1 more slot that can be used for weapon upgrades.

Paladins advantages are in bonused tractors and posibility to make it capstable very easily without losing too much gank. I dont know if OP loots/salvages anoms with his pally or wants it to be capstable - if not, then nightmare would be probably better option for him.

Sure thing is, that paladin and nightmare are 2 best subcapital ships available for killing blood raiders.
Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2011-09-24 10:37:01 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Jorhan Brimve Stahl wrote:
...

But nightmare will ALWAYS have better kill speed than paladin if both are fitted for max gank, just because it has 1 more offensive bonus and 1 more slot that can be used for weapon upgrades.

Paladins advantages are in bonused tractors and posibility to make it capstable very easily without losing too much gank. I dont know if OP loots/salvages anoms with his pally or wants it to be capstable - if not, then nightmare would be probably better option for him.


Earlier in this thread I've posted my mission fit. While I understand that anomalies differ from missions and tach Nightmare or even tach Paladin might be a better choice there, I have to disagree that Nightmare will always be better than Paladin.
If you can use MWD to get within 25km range to most rats fast enough then Paladin might use t2 ROF rig and better tracking to its advantage.

TL;DR: tach Nightmare and pulse Paldin can deal similar damage, but in different range brackets.
NoNah
Hyper-Nova
#43 - 2011-09-24 13:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: NoNah
Jorhan Brimve Stahl wrote:

And in some missions every single time they spawn too far away - Blockade and The Assault for example. TC cycle is ten seconds long, but with two of them most of the time you'll have one available in 5 seconds and/or one or both already loaded with required script already while switching INMFQ to Scorch is instant. I.e. switching from target at 20-25 km to 60km while using pulse lasers and two TCs is instant since I've already have two optimal range scripts loaded and won't need additional tracking.

Granted both the mentioned missions are typically done with cruise or heavy missiles.And yes, your example is as true as torps not requiring a change from 40km to 0km, while lazors do.

Jorhan Brimve Stahl wrote:
Technically you don't have four TPs on a solo Golem, so one group will have two TPs, and other will have two TPs that will be available as Soon (tm) as cycle ends. When Paladin uses ungrouped guns against approaching cruisers the only limit is time required to lock onto new batch of targets. And yeah, you definitely have to fit a smartbombing active-shieldtanked Noctis and say that any mission it can't do fast is crap. Oh well, here goes Blockade - crappy mission.

Also, forget about full damage from Golem's torp against mobile cruisers - it's won't happen. With only two TPs and faction torps you'll lose more than 50% of you damage and it's a fact, not speculation.

There's plenty of setups using 4 TP's. It won't allow an AB, true, but... that's not that huge of an issue. I have no idea what you're trying to prove with your smartbombing noctis? It's as if you're saying you can only use one ship for all missions and that you have to accept all of them? And then you suggest the paladin is great under the same breath?

I'd love to see anything supporting said claims that you will lose more than 50% of your damage while only using two tps and faction torps. My first example when testing it out was the first elite cruiser of an angel extravaganza(Elite angel cruisers being pretty much the worst case scenario) namely (http://npc.elfarto.com/view.php?id=24120)Arch Gistum Liquidator. A golem will with two TP's have torps with the equivalent of 183m explosion radius and 141m explosion velocity. I'm honestly not going to go over the math of it myself, but consider the fact that EFT suggests it deal full damage and my contempt with that for now.
Quote:

"That's what I said? A nightmare outdamages a paladin, however...."
...however this claim works only if one fits Paladin like you did.

So... with another setup the nightmare does not outdamage the paladin? Or it does not have tractorbeams? Again, what are you saying?
Quote:

1) BS. If target is at range where you need all TCs to be scripted for optimal then TE's +10% to tracking is insignificant. When target is close enough to free at least one TC for tracking script TEs become inferior, but if you like them so much then Nighmare can use TE or two to augment or replace TC. Oh, and don't forget about stacking penalty.

2) What the hell did I just read? It looks like word salad.

1) Stacking penalties apply to both modules identically. No, a nightmare can't use TE's simply because it doesn't have the lows for more than one. I'm not saying TC's are bad in any way, you might want to ease up on the extrapolation there champ. Any way you flip it 9.5% is 9.5% compared to 0%.

2) I'm honestly not sure how to spell it out easier. Count the number of slots you use for any and all of your highend missionrunners. I'd love to see a few sample setups of your marauders who viably uses more than 4 defensive modules.

Quote:

First of all you've obviously missed my fit - I know how to use cap booster, in fact I've used to run pulse tank without cap booster on Maelstrom, CNR and Golem. Medium t1 meta cap booster on your ship is a crutch, and not even a good one.

Tractors are indeed useful for mission objective retrieval, but Nightmare can fit one as well and there are very few missions when you'll be out of 20km range from the can. Also I'm returning your "don't run crappy missions" argument.

Side income from salvaging with two tractors and single salvager? You've got to be kidding me. Five extra minutes spent in mission or anomaly due to crap tracking are a waste, and any salvage or loot you'll get this way won't cover the opportunity cost.

I didn't. I'm not sure how your fit renders a shieldtanked version low on cap however? If your fit is using neuts and rightnext tothe shield one I might be able to understand it.

The difference between a faction is 0.75 seconds, that is 22 seconds compared to 21.25, or +1.2 cap / second in constant use. You're right, that is an awfull loss. If you're paranoid, do upgrade and spend the whooping what, 20 mil?(Admitably not a price I know offhand)

5 minutes? Really? Few missions take more than 5 minutes active time, and I somehow doubt even you claim that he paladin takes twice as long as a nightmare. =)
"Wow. Just wow. Paladin cargo bay is big enough for 34-35 cap booster 800s, plus those loaded in booster and it's still not enough? Blood Blockade takes only 12-15 charges and I used MWD a lot. Dude, looks like it's not tractors you have to use, but proper ship."

Not... sure blockade is a sanctum? Even so, say you blast through 15 charges per sanctum, it'd mean you'd have to dock up every other anomaly. That's quite a loss in efficiency, even worse once you realise the cap boosters won't magically spawn in station.
Kahldor
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-09-24 13:49:20 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:

When facing npc tds use optimal script to increase your falloff range - npc tds do not affect your falloff. Tracking is rarely issue when fighting td cruisers, because they rarely spawn in their orbit range - so they approach you with minimal angular.


Sorry but I mean td as in tracking disrupting. You must not have run L4 Sansha blockade recently otherwise you would know what I'm talking about. Even using 2TCs with tracking scripts I can't hit the (6) elite cruisers that spawn on wave 2 at any range very well. It became so much of a pain that I just switched to CNR. There are some comments on EVE survival about it.
Kahldor
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-09-24 14:08:05 UTC
Seriously, guys go read the first post before spouting irrelevant information to the OP. The OP is running havens and sanctums in Blood Raider space not level 4 missions.

In some cases havens and sanctums are easier than L4s as you can control your warp in distance, don't have to worry about changing hardeners/ships every mission, getting mission objectives ,etc. The only thing you have to do is pay attention to local, safe/dock if a red shows up, and not screw up triggers. And tracking is hardly an issue with blood anoms if you know how to run them.

Obviously, some people in this thread have never ran them before otherwise we wouldn't have got so far off topic discussing TPs and golems and how the nightmare is better in L4s. The OP is in blood space meaning the best setup is a sniping Paladin or sniping Nightmare.
Lugalzagezi666
#46 - 2011-09-24 16:51:29 UTC
Kahldor wrote:
Sorry but I mean td as in tracking disrupting. You must not have run L4 Sansha blockade recently otherwise you would know what I'm talking about. Even using 2TCs with tracking scripts I can't hit the (6) elite cruisers that spawn on wave 2 at any range very well. It became so much of a pain that I just switched to CNR. There are some comments on EVE survival about it.


You cant hit them because your optimal is maybe 2km. I ran sansha blockade many many times and usually do it in 14-15mins with my nightmare.

Again :
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
When facing npc tds use optimal script to increase your falloff range - npc tds do not affect your falloff.


Jorhan Brimve Stahl wrote:
TL;DR: tach Nightmare and pulse Paldin can deal similar damage, but in different range brackets.

Wrong. Nightmare will outdps paladin if they are both fitted for max gank, because it has tracking bonus and 1 more slot that can be used on tc, te or hs.

Compare this fit /id never use it as tachs are just better/ with your pally fit and you will see that nightmare has same tank, does 40 more dps, has slightly better range and 50% better tracking :

[Nightmare, New Setup 1]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist A-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Pith B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Energy Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
[empty rig slot]


Aamrr
#47 - 2011-09-24 17:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you'd get a better tank out of that fit if you swapped the invuln to a heat dissipation field and changed the anti-thermal rig to an anti-em screen. Gist shield boosters have also dropped in price quite dramatically and are very cost-effective alternatives if you're concerned with capacitor.

Edit: And if you've got the powergrid to spare, you'd probably benefit significantly from using a pair of T2 locus coordinators. They dramatically improve your optimal range and would let you swap at least one of your TCs to tracking scripts.
Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2011-09-24 21:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl
NoNah wrote:

Granted both the mentioned missions are typically done with cruise or heavy missiles.And yes, your example is as true as torps not requiring a change from 40km to 0km, while lazors do.

There's plenty of setups using 4 TP's. It won't allow an AB, true, but... that's not that huge of an issue. I have no idea what you're trying to prove with your smartbombing noctis? It's as if you're saying you can only use one ship for all missions and that you have to accept all of them? And then you suggest the paladin is great under the same breath?

You can set TC to turn off at the end of the cycle, you can't cycle torp launcher and reload it at the same time.

Golem using 4 TP's is 1) a huge PITA to manage, 2) has too expensive and barely sufficient tank, 3) has no speed mods
By suggesting to fit smarbombing Noctis I mean that you've created a gimped fit and trying to prove it's effectiveness by cherry-picking rare situations in which it sucks the least.

EFT can suggest a lot of things. Use test server and an alt.

NoNah wrote:

1) Stacking penalties apply to both modules identically. No, a nightmare can't use TE's simply because it doesn't have the lows for more than one. I'm not saying TC's are bad in any way, you might want to ease up on the extrapolation there champ. Any way you flip it 9.5% is 9.5% compared to 0%.

Stacking penalties are icing on cake. As I said, at range where you have to run all your TCs scripted for optimal added tracking is irrelevant, while at range where at least one TC is scripted for tracking TEs suck.

NoNah wrote:

I didn't. I'm not sure how your fit renders a shieldtanked version low on cap however? If your fit is using neuts and rightnext tothe shield one I might be able to understand it.
Not... sure blockade is a sanctum? Even so, say you blast through 15 charges per sanctum, it'd mean you'd have to dock up every other anomaly. That's quite a loss in efficiency, even worse once you realise the cap boosters won't magically spawn in station.
Using x-large shield booster to counter damage against weak resistances and waiting for MEDIUM cap booster to reload after each cycle (or do you use 200-400s?) means that you're always low on cap.

Blockade is a mission with 20-30 battleships. Can't see why it's so much trouble to manufacture or buy enough cap boosters and drop them off in a can at the spot. Even docking every other time might be a better option if you consider that not every wreck contains any charges at all.
NoNah
Hyper-Nova
#49 - 2011-09-24 22:41:12 UTC
Jorhan Brimve Stahl wrote:

You can set TC to turn off at the end of the cycle, you can't cycle torp launcher and reload it at the same time.

Golem using 4 TP's is 1) a huge PITA to manage, 2) has too expensive and barely sufficient tank, 3) has no speed mods
By suggesting to fit smarbombing Noctis I mean that you've created a gimped fit and trying to prove it's effectiveness by cherry-picking rare situations in which it sucks the least.

EFT can suggest a lot of things. Use test server and an alt.

Absolutely. And your solution to said problem is to gimp a fit even worse to make it equally bad for all scenarios and excellent at none. While I prefer to cherry pick the missions AND the ships that suit that particular mission. If you're doing a blockade you use a tengu or CNR, if you're doing a recon or cargo delivery mission you use a dramiel.

1) No, not really. 2) It's not at risk of being suicide ganked(We're still in 0.0 remember?), what is it to expensive for exactly? 3) There's no issue fitting 4 TP's and a propmod, even so propmods are situational, most of the missions the golem excells at does not require any. That said, I tend to keep one one just because I'm lazy.
Quote:

Stacking penalties are icing on cake. As I said, at range where you have to run all your TCs scripted for optimal added tracking is irrelevant, while at range where at least one TC is scripted for tracking TEs suck.

How... apt. That magic barrier is RIGHT at that 60km border. Yet... the nightmares bonus is terribly important throughout the missions(iirc to the point where it doubles the time spent in missions)

Quote:
Using x-large shield booster to counter damage against weak resistances and waiting for MEDIUM cap booster to reload after each cycle (or do you use 200-400s?) means that you're always low on cap.

Blockade is a mission with 20-30 battleships. Can't see why it's so much trouble to manufacture or buy enough cap boosters and drop them off in a can at the spot. Even docking every other time might be a better option if you consider that not every wreck contains any charges at all.

Of course not, as any battleshipsized missionship it uses 800's. The resistances are not particularly weak(Noticably stronger than a cookie cutter golem for example, which instead compensates by a built-in SBA).

I didn't expect to have to spell this out for you, but the issue with buying or manufacturing cap boosters is the extremely high demand on factory slots in stations and the high logistics required to move cap boosters in - or produce in poses. Not to mention, if you have to dock or warp to a pos after every two anomalies, you'll have wasted noticeably more time on warping than what is gained by added tracking. This is again why I specifically pointed this out for anomalies.

And no, not every wreck contains charges. However more than one wreck per site will spawn with boosters within 40km. That is - you will never come to a halt due to a lack of boosters(and by you will never, I mean I have never).
Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-09-25 01:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl
NoNah wrote:

3) There's no issue fitting 4 TP's and a propmod, even so propmods are situational, most of the missions the golem excells at does not require any. That said, I tend to keep one one just because I'm lazy.

Congratulations, you've just said that Golem can run nicely with only two slots for tank and no cap mods. And that building 300 charges in less than one hour and using tier 1 industrial to haul them at spot is a serious logistical problem. And that you have to train marauder skill to 5 in order to keep running half of all missions in Tengu or CNR.

Have fun in your dream world, but I'm out of here because you can't get better than this. Unless you'll go on with that smartbombing Noctis.
NoNah
Hyper-Nova
#51 - 2011-09-25 02:03:29 UTC
Jorhan Brimve Stahl wrote:
NoNah wrote:

3) There's no issue fitting 4 TP's and a propmod, even so propmods are situational, most of the missions the golem excells at does not require any. That said, I tend to keep one one just because I'm lazy.

Congratulations, you've just said that Golem can run nicely with only two slots for tank and no cap mods. And that building 300 charges in less than one hour and using tier 1 industrial to haul them at spot is a serious logistical problem. And that you have to train marauder skill to 5 in order to keep running half of all missions in Tengu or CNR.

Have fun in your dream world, but I'm out of here because you can't get better than this, unless you'll go on with that smartbombing Noctis. Have fun.


Yes, I have said that a golem can run well with nothing but a shield booster and injector. I'll stand by that any day of the week. I did for the record not recommend it or in anyway imply it's the best way of doing it.

Yes, I will stand by that moving cap boosters from empire to your 0.0 site in a t1 hauler is a logistical issue. Have fun making that run quite often.

No, I never said or implied you had to train marauder 5, but yes, I will keep using the best ship I can use for any given mission. You don't have to stop training skills the instant you can fly one ship well. I didn't, why should I ask it of anyone else - let alone assume they will?

Actually, the smartbombing noctis is still your construct, personally I've never found a use for the ship what so ever and smartbombs have barely been viable in pve since castor or something around there. I am having fun, as I do like optimizing. But I also appreciate there are people who don't - that's the reason there is isk in optimizing in the first place. Glad to be your dream though.
Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2011-09-25 17:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl
NoNah wrote:

Yes, I have said that a golem can run well with nothing but a shield booster and injector. I'll stand by that any day of the week. I did for the record not recommend it or in anyway imply it's the best way of doing it.

Yes, I will stand by that moving cap boosters from empire to your 0.0 site in a t1 hauler is a logistical issue. Have fun making that run quite often.

No, I never said or implied you had to train marauder 5, but yes, I will keep using the best ship I can use for any given mission. You don't have to stop training skills the instant you can fly one ship well. I didn't, why should I ask it of anyone else - let alone assume they will?

Actually, the smartbombing noctis is still your construct, personally I've never found a use for the ship what so ever and smartbombs have barely been viable in pve since castor or something around there. I am having fun, as I do like optimizing. But I also appreciate there are people who don't - that's the reason there is isk in optimizing in the first place. Glad to be your dream though.


Ok, I'll bite.

Your selective reading skills are indeed impressive. You said "no issues". Being unable to complete most missions at all in a marauder is an issue.

No one ever said about building booster charges in empire.

Using Golem implies marauder skill at 5.

Smarbombing Noctis was an example of propping up a very specialized (and not very impressive while we're at it) fit as an optimal solution by highliting it's least relevant features. See also - Golem with two groups of launchers 440dps tank against favorable resistances with Gist X-type shield booster on a close-range ship and four TPs which still won't give you decent damage against cruisers.

Optimizing can be done in many ways, not all of them include shield tanking everything and using a single highly trained character to fly different ship for every mission. And as for being someone's dream - where did that come from?

Who would've thought this thread come to such derail...
NoNah
Hyper-Nova
#53 - 2011-09-26 19:52:28 UTC
Except you can complete more or less all missions in it. I say more or less only because I havn't tried the ones that grant more penalties than rewards(Typically missions versus other empire-factions fall are this way, and only those).

And no, no-one said you were supposed to build them in empire, however building them in 0.0 is far far more expensive than doing so in empire.(NPC 0.0 obviously excluded as they lack the same kind of opportunity cost). Not to mention, building them in 0.0 forces you to obtain minerals for it, which means you still have to waste resources on either gathering the minerals in your 0.0(Which cuts deeply into the profits we already strive for so desperately) or ... compress them in empire. Regardless of which way you choose, it will cut into your profits WAY more than just... grabbing them at the very spot you need them at the grand cost of 37.5% tracking(well a fraction of the 37.5% depending on how the gathered loot weighs in). And that's still not accounting for the logistics of restocking the boosters. You will need to move the boosters from your hauler into the cargohold of your ship in an anomaly somehow.

Who ever said anything about muliple characters? Don't say you need marauder 5 to sit in a golem in one sentence, then claim that everything needs to be newbie friendly in the next. Neither paladin nor golem is a great all-purpose newbie ship. If that's what you want a CNR or Tengu is far more potent. (And CNR shares half it's skills with both the golem and nightmare, the only lack is sentry drone interfacing and cruise missiles, both which honestly need not be trained high to be usable(even if obviously not optimal)).

Except the damage from a golem - with 2 or more applied target painters - is exceptionally good on most cruisersand generally far better than the alternative under non-optimal conditions. Compare the damage of your armorpaladin on an orbiting cruiser with the damage of a golem with "only" 2 tps applied.

And yes, shieldtanking does not make things better in all cases - far from. However if all you want is as much damage as possible it very often is. A good example of where armortanks shine is vanguard incursions(NCO's mainly) where locking time, projection and to a much lesser degree tank becomes much more relevant than high damage output.
NoNah
Hyper-Nova
#54 - 2011-09-26 19:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: NoNah
After some consideration, it's not important enough to be repeated already.
Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2011-09-27 09:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl
NoNah wrote:
Except you can complete more or less all missions in it. I say more or less only because I havn't tried the ones that grant more penalties than rewards(Typically missions versus other empire-factions fall are this way, and only those).

Blockade (blood, serpentis, sansha), mordus headhunters, unauthorized military presnce (blood, for example), pirate invasion (sanshas would love your 0% shield resistance), blood raider Vengeance, guristas Extravaganza, downing the slavers... Even if you'll be able to complete them, there will be zero advantage in having four TPs, in fact you'll just waste more time on what normal fit would do with less trouble. I'd say that's an issue, and a big one.

NoNah wrote:
Not to mention, building them in 0.0 forces you to obtain minerals for it, which means you still have to waste resources on either gathering the minerals in your 0.0(Which cuts deeply into the profits we already strive for so desperately) or ... compress them in empire.

BS again. Building two thousand charges takes minerals from a few (I'd say eight, not going to run numbers right now though) t1 meta 0 tachyon lasers and c couple of t1 meta 0 100MN MWDs. That, trivial amount of megacyte and zydrate, single manufacturing line and seven hours at station (less at pos or amarr outpost) and you've got yourself enough charges for a month.

NoNah wrote:

Who ever said anything about muliple characters? Don't say you need marauder 5 to sit in a golem in one sentence, then claim that everything needs to be newbie friendly in the next.

Where did you get that?
And yeah, anyone treating Golem seriously has to train marauders to 5. Boost and painter bonuses are that important.


NoNah wrote:

Except the damage from a golem - with 2 or more applied target painters - is exceptionally good on most cruisersand generally far better than the alternative under non-optimal conditions. Compare the damage of your armorpaladin on an orbiting cruiser with the damage of a golem with "only" 2 tps applied.

Ok. I've got an alt in Cynabal pretending to be an Arch Gistum Liquidator (you've took one as an example) which has 130m/s signature and 200m/s orbiting speed. Golem alt has marauder and target navigation prediction skills at 5, signature focusing at 4, uses t2 painters and ZMS1000 implant. 2x TPs, target mobile- 41% damage. 3x TPs, target mobile - 50% damage. 4x TPs, target mobile - 55% damage. 4x TPs, target immobile - 77% damage. Congratulations, to perform worse than that Paladin has to let this cruiser orbit at less than 15km. Too bad it won't happen because listed orbiting range for this cruiser is 22km at which it will receive at least 85% of max DPS. Even approaching with transversal speed of 70m/s or less this cruiser will receive 90% of maximum DPS, so it won't get close enough.

NoNah wrote:

And yes, shieldtanking does not make things better in all cases - far from. However if all you want is as much damage as possible it very often is.

After coming up with "Golem with two TPs deals full damage against Arch Gistum" you'll have to do better than that.
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