These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Carebear Stigma: A Question

First post
Author
Qupid Stunt
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2011-09-27 06:28:14 UTC
Actually I think the distinction has nothing to do with ability.
Some people just like to build things
Some people just like to blow things up

If any of you have played the Egosoft X games then just take a look on their forums. There is a clear distinction between the empire builders and the combat pilots. It doesn't really matter if its pixels or people you are shooting. Some people want a long term strategic challenge and the feeling of accomplishment while other just want the short tem adrenaline rush.
Basileus Volkan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2011-09-27 06:31:26 UTC
Some people here seem to confuse the act of making money to spend it on, for example, PvP ships with the act of making money for the sake of making money.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#23 - 2011-09-27 06:37:02 UTC
Seraph Cruoris wrote:
I'm pretty new to EVE (Employment history aside; this account has seen a good amount of downtime) so my question is due to curiosity and maybe a little more time with the game I could probably later understand why people think this way....but here goes...

what is with the carebear stigma? i could be wrong but from my understanding the majority of the EVE economy is player driven, wouldn't you technically need these 'carebears' to keep the economy afloat. I understand they're not people you want in PvP or those defending your miners (who also garner the stigma).

I was just wondering really and was hoping to see what the opinions are.


You seem to be under the assumption that people who can PvP can't make move or sell goods. In fact most of them do, because economically speaking, being a PvPer is a negative-sum game and the majority of PvPers need an income.

A "carebear" isn't necessarily someone who makes ships or mines or whatever. It's someone who refuses to accept that they should be at risk when they do so. That's the attitude that many find so annoying: that sense of entitlement, the idea that they should never have to face any actual loss.

If all of these people disappeared overnight, the EVE economy would take a little while to adjust, and then carry on just fine tyvm, because as I said above, there are PvPers who mine, make, move and sell things to each other already.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2011-09-27 06:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Seraph Cruoris wrote:
I'm pretty new to EVE (Employment history aside; this account has seen a good amount of downtime) so my question is due to curiosity and maybe a little more time with the game I could probably later understand why people think this way....but here goes...

what is with the carebear stigma? i could be wrong but from my understanding the majority of the EVE economy is player driven, wouldn't you technically need these 'carebears' to keep the economy afloat. I understand they're not people you want in PvP or those defending your miners (who also garner the stigma).

I was just wondering really and was hoping to see what the opinions are.


Yes and no.

You also need those anti-carebear initiative to keep the demand flowing...

In other words if you get your pimp out tengu or nightmare or whatever strikes you fancy and you will have it for eternity your got no other goal to look forward. So the pirates just giving you reason to play.

and to put some light into it or to wrap it around shadows .. choice is yours

Carebear as i see it.. is kind of player who is "naive" and try to help his fellow capsuler. Be it teaching basic strategies, giving insight to matter of PvP, mission hunting, plexing, you name it. As well as try to protect them.

So being carebear does not necessarily means you are against the idea of PvP. You just got different codex to kill other people ships.

/signed Carebear .. failed at trying to PvP for other people. So i stick around and helping others with theories i learned from people who actually can.
Jokerface666
Intergalactic Expeditionary Corp
#25 - 2011-09-27 06:43:42 UTC
Exactly, it are people running around with plexes in the cargohold and ending filling a petition about it, unwilling to accept that this is eve.

For example i have an alt in hs which is running a pos an making tons of stuff, thats how i can afford my 0,0 ventures, i can tell you it's not cheap.
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-09-27 06:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Cruoris
Quote:
You seem to be under the assumption that people who can pvp can't make move or sell goods. In fact most of them do, because economically speaking, being a PvPer is a negative-sum game and the majority of PvPers need an income.


I never made that assumption. To clarify what I meant to say is this, you need dedicated non pvp-ers to add to the economy. don't get me wrong I know pvp-ers need to make ISK and will be found doing the non pvp professions to do so; but how many would you say do it to keep their pvp-ing going vs how many of them do it to make money and inadvertently keep the economy running?

Quote:
If all of these people disappeared overnight, the EVE economy would take a little while to adjust, and then carry on just fine tyvm, because as I said above, there are PvPers who mine, make, move and sell things to each other already.


if you mean people will create alts to become 'carebears' and supplement the economy - sure. if you mean the economy will be sustainable by small bursts of ISK circulation and product circulation - i doubt it.

Quote:
You also need those anti-carebear initiative to keep the demand flowing...


I understand this. My question isn't that there is no need for carebears or no need for pvp-ers but rather that the stigma that is the 'carebear' label seems to negate the importance those role are to the EVE economy. my question is why the negative association with said professions....but as some already have addressed...carebears should really be labeled only to those who feel there should be a risk-free gameplay in EVE or for people who believe the pve roles should operate without the pvp elements...and not simply to those who want to play the game and only mine or mission run etc

someone said its only a word; in a sociological spectrum stigma would probably be the best term to describe what 'carebear' has become in EVE...
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-09-27 06:48:40 UTC
well many people use many words lightly.

be it abbreviations / internet vocabulary which by constant abusing become meaningless such as LoL, OMG etc. the meaning behind those is clear, however people use them all the time in situations they are not suited to.

As well as you said stigma words such as Carebear, PvPer. Which in the end means fellow player nothing more nothing less... Thats how i see it.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#28 - 2011-09-27 06:55:15 UTC
Seraph Cruoris wrote:
Quote:
You seem to be under the assumption that people who can pvp can't make move or sell goods. In fact most of them do, because economically speaking, being a PvPer is a negative-sum game and the majority of PvPers need an income.


I never made that assumption. To clarify what I meant to say is this, you need dedicated non pvp-ers to add to the economy. don't get me wrong I know pvp-ers need to make ISK and will be found doing the non pvp professions to do so; but how many would you say do it to keep their pvp-ing going vs how many of them do it to make money and inadvertently keep the economy running?

Quote:
If all of these people disappeared overnight, the EVE economy would take a little while to adjust, and then carry on just fine tyvm, because as I said above, there are PvPers who mine, make, move and sell things to each other already.


if you mean people will create alts to become 'carebears' and supplement the economy - sure. if you mean the economy will be sustainable by small bursts of ISK circulation and product circulation - i doubt it.



So a PvPer with an industry alt is a carebear, but a carebear with a PvP alt isn't a PvPer? How does your logic work here?

What if the "alt" is in fact the same character? Like I said, "PvPers" can train industry, science, marketing or hauling skills just as well as anyone else. Supposing I use this character to farm Rogue Drone sites and haul minerals to station until I feel like PvPing. Am I a carebear or a PvPer?

You seem to be stuck in a class-based mindset; if someone is a priest, then they're not a rogue. But in EVE, people can switch character class merely by switching the ship they're in.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-09-27 06:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Cruoris
to Jarsolav: except no one really brands pvp-ers as a negative role (whiners aside). carebears carry a negative associations with it no matter its use (people will never identify themselves really as a carebear)...people 'inside' might use it as a joking term to throw around cause its become the label that they are associated with but when they talk to people 'outside' they will probably identify themselves as their profession be it traders, miners, haulers etc

to Malcanis: im not in a class based mindset. you're misunderstanding what im trying to talk about here...edit: im not saying there is a class A and class B and you can only do one or the other. im asking why roles other than pvp carry the carebear label which is either used as an insult or to belittle the role of the individual within EVE dynamics (sure this is all opinion based and simple epeen smack talk but otherwise no one goes "you're just a pvp-er who needs to listen to you" at least i havent seen that)...

like people have said and ive resaid...a carebear should be the naive players who misunderstand what EVE is and how it plays and not a broad stroke branding of roles people may solely dedicate themselves too
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2011-09-27 07:02:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Seraph Cruoris wrote:
to Jarsolav: except no one really brands pvp-ers as a negative role (whiners aside). carebears carry a negative associations with it no matter its use (people will never identify themselves really as a carebear)...people 'inside' might use it as a joking term to throw around cause its become the label that they are associated with but when they talk to people 'outside' they will probably identify themselves as their profession be it traders, miners, haulers etc

to Malcanis: im not in a class based mindset. you're misunderstanding what im trying to talk about here...


well i try to switch to real life example : homosexual/Gay ... somehow it carry the negative association, But is it covered by some hard evidence in regards of "moral view" etc. .. like they are more inclined to crime? No...

I would say if carebears stop taking word carebear as an negative one, then it would simply stop being negative.
You allways see people who says you are carebear, and you allways see people who defend themselfs as they are not and take it as an insult.. I ask why.. What the other person who labeled it that way did to make you think you are worse being or better being?

viz my description of carebear .. I am proud to be one.. No i dont excel at any aspect of EvE but i got some information background, so i know stuff i just cant reproduce its effectivness myself...

Nothing exactly... Its only our own perception of things... Bad/Good doesnt really exist outside our mindset.
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-09-27 07:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Cruoris
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:


well i try to switch to real life example : homosexual/Gay ... somehow it carry the negative association, But is it covered by some hard evidence in regards of "moral view" etc. .. like they are more inclined to crime? No...

I would say if carebears stop taking word carebear as an negative one, then it would simply stop being negative.
You allways see people who says you are carebear, and you allways see people who defend themselfs as they are not and take it as an insult.. I ask why.. What the other person who labeled it that way did to make you think you are worse being or better being?

Nothing exactly... Its only our own perception of things... Bad/Good doesnt really exist outside our mindset.


well said. but even though. everyone does or seemingly do use it as a negative.

lets take your example further: if im not mistaken to be called homosexual is 'politically correct' and is not offensive where as calling someone 'gay' or '****' is (at least of the people i know feel this way).

where does the line between objective and subjective start when you're name calling...when does it become an insult?..

edit: even CCP thinks its offensive lol (didnt realise they auto censored)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2011-09-27 07:09:23 UTC
Seraph Cruoris wrote:

to Malcanis: im not in a class based mindset. you're misunderstanding what im trying to talk about here...edit: im not saying there is a class A and class B and you can only do one or the other. im asking why roles other than pvp carry the carebear label which is either used as an insult or to belittle the role of the individual within EVE dynamics (sure this is all opinion based and simple epeen smack talk but otherwise no one goes "you're just a pvp-er who needs to listen to you" at least i havent seen that)...


Have you not? I've had my ideas belittled on this basis many times. One simple experiment you can perform is to suggest that the hi-sec economy be rebalanced to reward risk (Use an alt for this, obviously). That's an easy way to get dozens of people called you a "ganktard" "pirate who wants easy kills" etc., without ever actually addressing the points that you make.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2011-09-27 07:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Seraph Cruoris wrote:


well said. but even though. everyone does or seemingly do use it as a negative.

lets take your example further: if im not mistaken to be called homosexual is 'politically correct' and is not offensive where as calling someone 'gay' or '****' is (at least of the people i know feel this way).

where does the line between objective and subjective start when you're name calling...when does it become an insult?..

edit: even CCP thinks its offensive lol (didnt realise they auto censored)



Social engineering. They switch name-calling when they switch political correctness...

Another one is being afro-american / black / ******. Its all about social engineering.

We are sheeps we live in herds. We are easily manipulated, but i guess more and more people realise that all pollitical correctness is just bullshit. Because those involved just crossed the line too many times in very short spawn.

Edit : moral of story is : when people start to stop giving a **** about pollitical correctnes and "judge people" in regards of their actions / or other express of their "personality" the word will become better place, or maybe an war zone who knows...
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-09-27 07:17:24 UTC
Jaroslav: well played. i unfort changed my field when I started doing my masters but I would have been interested in examining EVE in a socio-political spectrum on the side. right now masters is just chewing me up without hesitation.

Malcanis: interesting i was not aware of that. thanks for the info...coming into EVE late as did (relative to release date) was like stepping into a new world with its own socio-political dynamics. always interested in learning as much about the eve-player dynamics as the game itself...
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#35 - 2011-09-27 07:45:11 UTC
..." moral of story is : when people start to stop giving a **** about pollitical correctnes and "judge people" in regards of their actions / or other express of their "personality" the word will become better place, or maybe an war zone who knows..."

^^^^ This sentence has no information in it.

Kills corpies to deny enemy kill statistic = carebear
Determines worth of self or others by their stats, wealth, influence, etc = carebear
Seriously gets upset at ship loss, or refuses to even risk it = carebear
Teases the loser of a battle in any way = carebear

That's right, i'm expanding the meaning of carebear to include anyone so emotionally entangled in an aspect of the game it leads them to deride or not even try another aspect of the same game. Tortuous sentence there i know but oh well.

Seen the same attitude among hisec barnacles as well as nullsec war pigs. It seems like the strength of the original Goons was that they didn't care, but i keep meeting ones that have devolved into (lol) winners.

Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Froz3nEcho Sarain
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2011-09-27 07:57:49 UTC
Samroski wrote:
This issue separates the boys from men. Having said that, I am a boy and proud of it.


And you killed your statement by double posting it.

On topic:

Don't bother what people say about care bears. A big part of the EvE community seems to be elitist pvp pricks who call everyone a carebear that doesn't actively pvp every minute of their playing time in EvE. Just enjoy the game in your own way like everybody else should

[i]~ When everything fades away, an echo is the only sound that will remain ~   ~ Chaos is a name for any order that produces confusion in our minds ~[/i]

Barricade Dark
#37 - 2011-09-27 08:17:10 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
..." moral of story is : when people start to stop giving a **** about pollitical correctnes and "judge people" in regards of their actions / or other express of their "personality" the word will become better place, or maybe an war zone who knows..."

^^^^ This sentence has no information in it.

Kills corpies to deny enemy kill statistic = carebear
Determines worth of self or others by their stats, wealth, influence, etc = carebear
Seriously gets upset at ship loss, or refuses to even risk it = carebear
Teases the loser of a battle in any way = carebear

That's right, i'm expanding the meaning of carebear to include anyone so emotionally entangled in an aspect of the game it leads them to deride or not even try another aspect of the same game. Tortuous sentence there i know but oh well.

Seen the same attitude among hisec barnacles as well as nullsec war pigs. It seems like the strength of the original Goons was that they didn't care, but i keep meeting ones that have devolved into (lol) winners.


Ya I have to agree. From what I have seen Eve players are often two faced.. On the one (if they one up you) they are ROFL, calling you a nub or carebear and pretending like their some sort of elitist PvPer. On the other, when you one up them, they cry in local like a miner who just got popped. Same guy, different circumstances, totaly different attitude. Its exactly what happent to me last night. I got popped... went and grabbed a rifter and one upped the gate campers... then suddenly the tears where flowing in local.

People just can't seem to win or loose with any dignity or self respect.
Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
DARKNESS.
#38 - 2011-09-27 08:21:33 UTC
Gregor Palter wrote:
it depends how you define the term carebear. If you explain it as "people who do non-combat pvp" then I agree with most in this thread about how silly it is, and just to ignore the idiot who use it.

To me a carebear is someone who simply does not acknowledge the fact that this is a PVP game and that, sooner or later, it might knock on his door. Who will flail his arms blaming others for his own lack of effort and understanding. Someone who loses a hauler to a suicide is not necessarily a carebear, he just couldn't be bothered. Someone who starts whining about how unfair it is and how it is impossible to not get suicided blahblahblah, THAT is a carebear.

I realise that this is a very limited view and probably not how the majority sees it.


^^ THIS!

To me, a carebear is someone who shies away from anything remotely PvP, who goes out blowing up NPCs in missions etc, and when PvP comes a knocking cries about the unfairness of it. USUALLY they stick to high sec, though I've seen them crying in low sec when their covetor was blown up.

These are people I pity. ( and laugh at when they're not looking )

Personally, I consider myself an industrialist. I generally don't go out of my way to pew pew people, sometimes when I feel like it, I'll join an alliance/blue roam, generally as logistics as my pew pew skills are just enough to do the odd mission. That said, when someone wardecs us, or if I'm in low/null sec, I don't go crying. I'l put the dust cover on my orca and my freighters, and remove the dust cover from my PvP fit hurricane, my stealth bombers, and my Logistics ships.
I will assess the situation, weigh risk vs rewards, and then go ahead and do what I want anyway. I make regular trips in null sec to do my Planetary interaction, and during a brief time we had a ceasefire with the local null sec dwellers, I felt less at ease flying there than I did when they were red.
I LIKE dodging gatecamps in my prowler, it's one of the kinds of 'pvp' I do regularly. My wits, cloak, and all the other tricks I've stashed into my prowler, vs a whole squad/fleet of people trying to kill me.

I fight over prices with people on the local market, undercut, overbid, outbuy, and generally harass my faceless market opponents into submission to get the almighty ISK.

I make backdoor deals with people to supply me with goods above the market price, so they will always sell to me instead of whoever is on top in the market, cutting my competitors off from their supplies.

I am always building and selling things, exploring new markets, and new opportunities. Work on my spreadsheets, enhance my Spread-fu, and invest money into more business.

Am I a carebear for not flying around all the time looking for fights?
I don't think so. I'm an industrialist.
War is good for profit.


Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?

Gealbhan
Temeraria Praedonum
Catastrophic Diplomacy
#39 - 2011-09-27 08:59:27 UTC
PvE/PvP: To each their own.

I used to live in null sec as part of an alliance etc. Did the whole PvP thing.
I've since retired to highsec, repaired my standings somewhat and now I mission/mine for a living.

As times change so did I as an eve player. We're all evolving constantly in game and that's what makes us the community we are.
Potato IQ
Doomheim
#40 - 2011-09-27 10:35:12 UTC
If you don’t actively seek ship combat PvP, you are a carebear, and this is regardless of the security level of the system you call home. I struggle to understand how any other form of PvP, whilst interesting and lucrative to many, can fail to label a pilot as such

I have two combat pilots that will partake in activities to generate isk for ships, but this is secondary to finding targets to test my skills against. I have a mainly HS dwelling alt that moves resources about, but does have some combat skills. I don’t plan on having to engage other pilots with a weapon if at all possible, although it is inevitable if not consensual. He is a carebear who feeds those that aren’t, but he’s still a carebear