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Singularity - Changing the rules?

First post
Author
Comodore John
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-04-03 20:41:31 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Two requests:

]1) Seed faction ships and ammo.[/b] I can understand not seeding high-end deadspace/officer mods that are hardly ever used on the real server, but faction ships and especially faction ammo are frequently used on TQ. In fact, I'd argue that any balance testing that doesn't include faction ammo is worthless.

2) Enforce SiSi rules with TQ bans.[/b] None of this "please don't do it" nonsense, create a set of rules that allow testing to function properly and then ban anyone who ignores them. Sure, you can't catch every violation, but maybe if people were putting their TQ accounts at risk they might think twice about things like station camping or bringing supercapitals into the frigate arena.


Common faction ammos such as supplied by the 4 main factions would be fine, as would cap boosters, HOWEVER faction ships are not. It has been proven time and time again that the seeding of faction ships causes more harm than good.

As for the TQ ban, that's just plain stupid. Actions on sisi don't (and shouldn't) affect TQ, just as any action done on TQ after a mirror is applied does no affect sisi.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#62 - 2012-04-03 21:33:18 UTC
Comodore John wrote:
Common faction ammos such as supplied by the 4 main factions would be fine, as would cap boosters, HOWEVER faction ships are not. It has been proven time and time again that the seeding of faction ships causes more harm than good.


Refusing to seed faction ships creates a completely unrealistic testing environment. Faction ships on TQ are fairly cheap (some even cheaper than comparable T2 ships) and popular in PvP. In fact, I suspect that they're even more popular than T3 cruisers, which are still seeded normally.

Quote:
As for the TQ ban, that's just plain stupid. Actions on sisi don't (and shouldn't) affect TQ, just as any action done on TQ after a mirror is applied does no affect sisi.


Why shouldn't they have any effect? If you aren't mature enough to follow basic rules, then you don't need to be playing EVE on either server.
Missile War
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-04-04 08:06:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Missile War
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Comodore John wrote:
Common faction ammos such as supplied by the 4 main factions would be fine, as would cap boosters, HOWEVER faction ships are not. It has been proven time and time again that the seeding of faction ships causes more harm than good.


Refusing to seed faction ships creates a completely unrealistic testing environment. Faction ships on TQ are fairly cheap (some even cheaper than comparable T2 ships) and popular in PvP. In fact, I suspect that they're even more popular than T3 cruisers, which are still seeded normally.

Quote:
As for the TQ ban, that's just plain stupid. Actions on sisi don't (and shouldn't) affect TQ, just as any action done on TQ after a mirror is applied does no affect sisi.


Why shouldn't they have any effect? If you aren't mature enough to follow basic rules, then you don't need to be playing EVE on either server.


altho i agree that faction ships should be seeded(maybe for just the 1st week?) the banning on TQ is useless. it won't help a bit really, just even less people then there are already...
Tas Nok
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-04-04 10:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tas Nok
This is an excellent idea... my top changes would be these:

have a combat region (syndicate) the main testing areas are already there and on the edge of hs so its not hard to get in or out, the region would help run a simple script for basically auto-banning, anything outside syndicate would just get you banned.

While you're at it you said banning from sisi was difficult... that should be fixed, if you can't play by the rules and play with the new toys nicely then "NO SISI FOR YOU" how you address this would be upto you for UN-bans but I'd say 90 days auto and just let them expire.. that's long enough to be a punishment and short enough to not be forever

All this being said I believe Syndicate should remain a FFA for pretty much everyone... if you want to isolate a system for caps and supers to shoot each other then fine, but syndicate is npc space and adding stations and new rules seems like work you stated you don't want to do... no real solution for the cap pilots, but short of adding something each time the system mirrors (like seeding) I don't see it getting fixe

Seeding, as others have said I will echo.. faction ships and ammo are a must... complex and officer gear no... but while I don't cruise around in a faction fitted moa, I do have have some bling on some of my ships, and its an annoyance that I can get gear off contracts on TQ, and then have to nerf my fits on sisi once the faction gear gets blown up. Ammo is also critical... pvp practice especially

please make seeding more even, esp in syndicate, it would really help with re-shipping during testing and practice.

A few off the wall ideas:

PLS, PLS, PLS bring back the moveme (anywhere) script... it was easily PURE AWESOME SAUCE, and the best thing I have ever seen, if folks complain or cry about missing a kill HTFU.. its sisi!!! the kills don't count

post a list of things you want the players to try (and all sorts of variants) in the masstest channel, you'd be surprised how many more bug reports you might get if we had a little nudge as to what we should be looking at

throw up a few market groups called TEST-modules, TEST ships... etc... for ideas that have been worked out in-house but are not yet really ready for prime time, let all of us break em in, we'll understand if the textures are off, the ships are buggy or OP or awful... the more people get their hands on these ships then you'll avoid ships like the torp-naga (loved that too, but I agree it was OP)
this could also include ideas for new T3 ships and the mythical subs that never got released

designate a system (non-combat) outside syndicate where building anything is sped up to 24hrs, titans to Orcas to rifters, if it is supposed to take longer than 24 hours all jobs complete at DT... that will fix alot of complaining about cap builds that go *poof* prolly ought to be a doomsday testing system with a station with lots of build slots, and lots of moons.

and finally, this overarching rule:
if you're complaining about the game being broken, file a bug repor
if you're complaining about rule xyz not being enforced or sisi being unfair, log-of
if you're complaining about other players, htfu, you didn't really die, all your stuff will be back with the next mirro
if you're complaining about anything else, you need a hobby outside eve, I suggest loose women, they can take your mind off anything
Demolishar
United Aggression
#65 - 2012-04-04 11:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Demolishar
Combat system should remain a system rather than a region - server population is too low for anything else
Return to class beacons and name them along the format "FFA - Cruiser and Below", not numbered.
Run script or create NPC or whatever automated system you want to instagib anything larger than the allowed class. Warped by mistake? HTFU.
Seed faction ammo
Unseed faction ships
Put faction ships (and potentially any other things that should be tested but not used exclusively) in reimbursement system, 1 or 2 of each per player. They can still be tested by everyone to an extent but throwaway Machs and Vindis are a thing of the past. It was done before for a previous AT, so it could probably be done now
Fird
Eve Minions
#66 - 2012-04-05 01:16:49 UTC
http://test.true-sansha.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=84192

This is why we need seperate system for Super Capitals or better yet no Super Caps at all.
Kein Echerie
Doomheim
#67 - 2012-04-05 10:30:24 UTC
CCP Habakuk wrote:
Hi again!

We had a meeting today to talk about this topic and we are now exploring several options to improve things (mostly through new tools). We won't change any rules right now, but we'll announce changes to rules and support as soon as we have anything ready.

We are mostly looking into splitting the combat system into two systems - but this is not fully decided yet, as we will need additional support (cyno jammer and similar). Several other changes were also discussed (like changes to the mirror script and station seeding), but this will need more work.

Thank you all for helping out in this thread! I'll keep you updated, as soon as we have anything ready.

I think it's a good idea to into "splitting the combat system into two systems -" C-6 for sub-caps and EZA for super cap/ capital
things should work out in the two testing systems. C-6 <--------cyno jamming
Missile War
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-04-05 14:57:27 UTC
Kein Echerie wrote:
CCP Habakuk wrote:
Hi again!

We had a meeting today to talk about this topic and we are now exploring several options to improve things (mostly through new tools). We won't change any rules right now, but we'll announce changes to rules and support as soon as we have anything ready.

We are mostly looking into splitting the combat system into two systems - but this is not fully decided yet, as we will need additional support (cyno jammer and similar). Several other changes were also discussed (like changes to the mirror script and station seeding), but this will need more work.

Thank you all for helping out in this thread! I'll keep you updated, as soon as we have anything ready.

I think it's a good idea to into "splitting the combat system into two systems -" C-6 for sub-caps and EZA for super cap/ capital
things should work out in the two testing systems. C-6 <--------cyno jamming


i really do not think capitals are the real problem, but supercapitals, normal capitals are easily avoided or warped from...
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#69 - 2012-04-06 03:38:53 UTC
Tas Nok wrote:
if you're complaining about rule xyz not being enforced or sisi being unfair, log-of
if you're complaining about other players, htfu, you didn't really die, all your stuff will be back with the next mirro


Sorry, but that's just stupid. If I log onto the test server to test something and I keep getting killed by someone (in violation of the rules), I am entirely justified in being annoyed at them for disrupting my use of the test server. It has nothing to do with the lost 100 ISK items and everything to do with the wasted time.
Neddy Fox
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#70 - 2012-04-06 07:49:06 UTC
IMO all rules should just be discarded.

We do testing in a system far away from the combat-system. No harassment, no one warping in supers, just us testing stuff.

For the combat zone : it's nullsec, EVE is a sandbox. Don't apply any rules. If people want to "pvp" on sisi they'll have to sort proper gangs to counter what ever the enemy brings.. Sisi is NOT a "cheap pvp arena" , it's a test environment.

Some automated drone / wreck cleanup (regularly like every 10 mins) will increase the user experience, since you delete warpin options and improve FPS. Even in TQ it's pretty uncommon to have 5.000 abandoned drones and wrecks on grid while still fighting.

Seed all ships including pirate / faction ships, except for supers and titans. Every ship must be testable, but the largest ships must be flown by people who actually know how to use them, so TQ mirrored supers only.
Steph Wing
No Dukks Given
#71 - 2012-04-06 12:01:00 UTC
Neddy Fox wrote:
IMO all rules should just be discarded.


Implying there are rules presently.
Tas Nok
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-04-06 23:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tas Nok
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Tas Nok wrote:
if you're complaining about rule xyz not being enforced or sisi being unfair, log-o
if you're complaining about other players, htfu, you didn't really die, all your stuff will be back with the next mirro


Sorry, but that's just stupid. If I log onto the test server to test something and I keep getting killed by someone (in violation of the rules), I am entirely justified in being annoyed at them for disrupting my use of the test server. It has nothing to do with the lost 100 ISK items and everything to do with the wasted time.


I will grant you are correct if you actually try moving around rather then being stubborn and insisting " I wanna run my test "HERE" and no one can stop me!!" space is big... griefers are universally a lazy bunch, if you run out to delve, stain or outer passage (if you need null space) you'll be fine. Sisi is terribly empty... lots and lots of space

now if you complain "why should "I" move??!!" its because sisi is like TQ, if folks want to gank, they gonna gank... no point in making it easy for them by being lazy just because things are cheap.

Continuing in this vein...If POSes and moon goo and contracts are all removed, I never understood why Sov is kept with each mirror, it would remove another barrier for corps learning how to move out to null (currently alliances on TQ take offence to their space being claimed on sisi) If there is a good reason to keep sov on sisi, its lost on me.

Something else for the dev's to think about... How are we gonna test bombardment? or any other interactions with the dust bunnies? will we be letting the dust folks onto sisi? Personally I'm dying to see the effect of a sieged dread or a doomsday Twisted

Edited missing brackets
Indigosia
Sith Navy
The Watchmen.
#73 - 2012-04-08 11:50:28 UTC
bring back oneiromancer <3
Atomic Warrior
Times of Ancar
#74 - 2012-04-10 12:45:38 UTC
CCP Habakuk wrote:


Super-capitals: We will have a closer look at them for sure, but I have no idea yet if and what we are changing.

Regarding acceleration gates: Do you have any good ideas about how to avoid camping the acceleration gate itself?
It would be nearly useless, if we would have a acceleration to an area without capitals, when the capitals are camping the acceleration gate itself.



Why not have some super NCP's that give silly high damage, like a concord style of NCP, that take 1 minute to lock.

That would give any one a chance to get to gate and go through, any one camping gets shot to bits.
rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-04-11 19:43:42 UTC
CCP Habakuk wrote:

Regarding acceleration gates: Do you have any good ideas about how to avoid camping the acceleration gate itself? It would be nearly useless, if we would have a acceleration to an area without capitals, when the capitals are camping the acceleration gate itself.



I know you want to keep the mirror as close to TQ as you can....but.....make one (or the main) system 0.5 or higher and linking ones low and nullsec. Do it by either moving the testing system, or changing the 'main' one to highsec on SiSi only.

By basing it in highsec you stop capitals being used for combat*, you stop people being idiots with bubbles, you stop fools coming in with bombs when trying to test something , you stop people camping *anything* due to concord. You stop ALL non consensual PvP in one swoop.

The system for PvP could be stupidly simple:

1) You steal from someone's can at one of the beacons (or something) - both people would have to 'consent'
2) You travel to the system next door which is low/null sec - you've consented by going there
3) You wardec them. You have a thread where someone from corp X posts "we are going to dec corp Y with permission from them". A member from corp Y then posts confirming they are willing to be decced before corp X issues the dec.
Anyone decing someone else without both corp X and Y having posted in the thread confirming agreement to the dec gets banned. No shiplosses to check or other nonsense. Are they at war? yes? corp Y didn't confirm in the thread? banned. Simple.

*Unless they have one from a TQ mirror


sweikewa
Achozen Dueces TecH
#76 - 2012-04-13 10:20:41 UTC  |  Edited by: sweikewa
The bigest problem with sisi is that it's not a test server ...
If you want people to test something you will need to seed everything .... The problem witch supercapitals camping FFA is that no one can set up a counter supercap fleet (not on market). So eaven if you would try to "kick" those suppers you have completly no way to do that if you didn't had a SC on TQ. So yes SC will camp the FFa beaucous there is no way to setup a counter fleet.

Seed sc. titans, at some point camping in SC wouldn't be so easy. Other players with the skills could kill you mor easyly
Izuru Hishido
Lethal Dosage.
Violent Society
#77 - 2012-04-17 06:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Izuru Hishido
sweikewa wrote:


Seed sc. titans, at some point camping in SC wouldn't be so easy. Other players with the skills could kill you mor easyly


And it would cause havoc for everyone on a monolithic scale. Think about the issue that would cause before suggesting utterly ******** fixes.

Edit: Habakuk, I have a probable idea for the acceleration gates. First, they should be regulated according to ship size, ideally the same way mission gates are. They should lead to unprobable deadspace plexes, preventing people from bypassing the gate, and each gate should remain on the station grid, on which you should place a grid-wide GM ECM Burst battery. This would both prevent combat at the station and prevent camping the acceleration gates.

Also, I suggest cyno-jamming all the deadspace pockets. This would allow you to regulate every shiptype in each pocket, i.e. BS and below, Supercap and below, etc.


The GM ECM Burst would also have the added benefit of permanently eliminating all combat on station.

Second Edit: I would consider you a hero if you could remove the pirate ships from the seeding. Pirate/faction ships should only be seeded two to three weeks before alliance tournament time, and then purge them from the server the same way control towers get purged after the alliance tournament ends.
sweikewa
Achozen Dueces TecH
#78 - 2012-04-17 07:00:26 UTC
Izuru Hishido wrote:
sweikewa wrote:


Seed sc. titans, at some point camping in SC wouldn't be so easy. Other players with the skills could kill you mor easyly


And it would cause havoc for everyone on a monolithic scale. Think about the issue that would cause before suggesting utterly ******** fixes.

Edit: Habakuk, I have a probable idea for the acceleration gates. First, they should be regulated according to ship size, ideally the same way mission gates are. They should lead to unprobable deadspace plexes, preventing people from bypassing the gate, and each gate should remain on the station grid, on which you should place a grid-wide GM ECM Burst battery. This would both prevent combat at the station and prevent camping the acceleration gates.

Also, I suggest cyno-jamming all the deadspace pockets. This would allow you to regulate every shiptype in each pocket, i.e. BS and below, Supercap and below, etc.


The GM ECM Burst would also have the added benefit of permanently eliminating all combat on station.

Second Edit: I would consider you a hero if you could remove the pirate ships from the seeding. Pirate/faction ships should only be seeded two to three weeks before alliance tournament time, and then purge them from the server the same way control towers get purged after the alliance tournament ends.



This is a TEST server if people want to fight in sc titans make a possibility to do soo.. Separate sytem like wh style no jump out no jump in.... So will try it for a week two three and will go back to smaller ship when they get bored...
1. Add a system with station + (titans sc on market) that is 20 LY from other system Out of jump range of other systems..
2. You will have 2 sides happpy....
Izuru Hishido
Lethal Dosage.
Violent Society
#79 - 2012-04-17 07:09:52 UTC
sweikewa wrote:
Izuru Hishido wrote:
sweikewa wrote:


Seed sc. titans, at some point camping in SC wouldn't be so easy. Other players with the skills could kill you mor easyly


Previous comment.



This is a TEST server if people want to fight in sc titans make a possibility to do soo.. Separate sytem like wh style no jump out no jump in.... So will try it for a week two three and will go back to smaller ship when they get bored...
1. Add a system with station + (titans sc on market) that is 20 LY from other system Out of jump range of other systems..
2. You will have 2 sides happpy....



Yes, and while they can't jump anywhere, moveme still takes them directly to 6-CZ, then continue to harass people. You put titans and SC's on the market, hell will break loose and there will be no end to it.

This has happened before due to a bug, and it was incessant, every single idiot had multiple titans, and it was non-stop for three weeks until they remirrored to get rid of them.

You put titans anywhere, they will get abused, they will get into the combat system, and the whining will be absolutely non-stop.
DeadDuck
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#80 - 2012-04-17 13:20:50 UTC
Remove Killmails from singularity and put back in the beacons.

Problem solved.