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Maelstrom VS Tempest with Minmatar BS V
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#21 - 2012-04-05 02:36:30 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
I understand how the double bonused ships get 66% damage bonus. But could someone explain how you get a 33% damage boost with just a 25% RoF boost?


1 / (1-.25) = 1.33333333

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#22 - 2012-04-05 03:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: JackStraw56
God's Apples wrote:
I understand how the double bonused ships get 66% damage bonus. But could someone explain how you get a 33% damage boost with just a 25% RoF boost?

The details of the math are in my previous post and Liang's.

Think of it this way, if you had a 50% rate of fire bonus, your guns would shoot twice as often, so you would do 200% dps (an increase of 100%, not 50%). You can't just take the rate of fire bonus number (50% in this case) and get the percentage increase in dps like you can with a damage bonus as opposed to a rof bonus.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-04-05 10:05:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Because EVE also fails at Math and/or English.

It is not a 5% *bonus* to *rate* of fire, it is a 5% *reduction* to weapon cycle time.
At lvl 1, the *bonus* to *rate* of fire is 1.0/0.95 = about 1.0526... ie a 5.26% bonus to ROF
Lvl 5 compared to lvl 4 has a *bonus* to *rate of fire* of 0.8/0.75 =1.06667 ie a 6.67% bonus to rate of fire.
(similar math applies to resist bonuses)

At any rate, even if it was a strict 5% bonus to ROF, your math would still be wrong.
It would then be 1.25 * 1.25 = 1.5625 -> ie a 56.25% increase in DPS
(damage bonus x ROF bonus)


EVE's bonus descriptions often leave a lot to be desired (I'm thinking of shield comp skills, target painting skills, etc).
They aren't clear/well written descriptions of the effect.



"Rates" of fire would be like: 5 shots per minute, or 12 shots/min
A true % increase to the rate of fire would directly equate to the same % increase in DPS.
Ie 50% increase in rate of fire, if your base rate was 10 shots/min, it would increase 50% to 15 shots/min.
I don't know why CCP hasn't re-written the bonus description to say "cycle time" rather than "rate of fire", because their current description is misleading and wrong.
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#24 - 2012-04-05 10:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenga Halaris
If you want to loot and fly a Patrol, you should at least be able to tank for 5-10 mins, even if its a burst tank. Try a capbooster:


[Tempest, drones]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Pith C-Type Explosion Dampening Field
Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
Salvager I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Large Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard I




Sure is more expensive than a T2 fit, but since you're looking for a Mach, you should be able to afford those mods at least.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#25 - 2012-04-05 11:19:34 UTC
ROF boost on turrets are also way better than damage and better than missle ROF bonuses if you take in to acount the random nature of turrets and the fact that more shots in a span of time is more dice rolls. IM a warmmer 40k Ork player I should know.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#26 - 2012-04-05 12:36:06 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ROF boost on turrets are also way better than damage and better than missle ROF bonuses if you take in to acount the random nature of turrets and the fact that more shots in a span of time is more dice rolls. IM a warmmer 40k Ork player I should know.


I fail to see what you mean about more dice rolls being better. Rolling dice 1 time with a 10x multiplier is better than rolling 10 times with a 1x multiplier?

In other news: rof bonus is better because it gives (as stated many times in this post allreay) 33% instead of 25% dps increase and also (for pve) because it wastes less of a salvo each time a vessel pops. Taking into account weapon grouping this is now considerable.

If however you can get the same dps from a damage bonused vessel as you could get from a rof bonused vessel then the ammo usage favors damage ship (example Vargur v Machariel). This is overturned when there is real dps difference because in that case the more dps (from rof usually) finishes npcs quicker allowing for less active tanking thus less ammo fired actually...
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-04-05 12:38:56 UTC
I don't think its any better than with missile ROF
More "rolls" per unit time just means less variation in DPS over certain time frames.

Also, a damage boost means you use less ammo/cap to deal a certain amount of damage.
Not so with cycle time reductions.
This can lead to significant savings when using T2/faction ammo, and T2 lasers/hybrids.

Of course if your target is active tanking, applying more DPS means you have less total damage to do - and the ROF bonus boosts total DPS more.
Conversely, it doesn't help your alpha at all, while the damage bonus does significantly boost alpha.


So.... I wouldn't conclude its "way better", they are both nice bonuses, and having both at once (ie on the tempest, or the mach), is very nice.
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-04-05 13:06:21 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ROF boost on turrets are also way better than damage and better than missle ROF bonuses if you take in to acount the random nature of turrets and the fact that more shots in a span of time is more dice rolls. IM a warmmer 40k Ork player I should know.



Greater chance of wrecking shots (crits) I believe is what he's driving at.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#29 - 2012-04-05 13:35:12 UTC
Kattshiro wrote:
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ROF boost on turrets are also way better than damage and better than missle ROF bonuses if you take in to acount the random nature of turrets and the fact that more shots in a span of time is more dice rolls. IM a warmmer 40k Ork player I should know.



Greater chance of wrecking shots (crits) I believe is what he's driving at.


If he meant the opposite, i.e. less chance of extreme deviation as Verity S suggests I might agree... If he means what you think he does I disagree that there is an advantage there... Quite the opposite...


On the subject but a bit further out: I have seen a gazillion graphs about all sorts of turret comparisons in the old forums (remember naughty boy?) but I do not rememebr the authoriative answer to this:

For the turret to achieve the same dps as the equasion: ammo damage x damage modifier x number of turrets / rof (what is usually referred to as dps or eft dps) does it need to hit: "hits" "aims weel" or " excellent shot"? (I know glancing blows and wreckings are out of the question of course).

Anyone reliably knows the correct answer?
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S0ns Of Anarchy
#30 - 2012-04-05 14:14:11 UTC
Roosterton wrote:

There is basically no reason to use a Tempest over a Maelstrom, unless you really really want the extra 2 utility highs


Wanting to move is another good reason, so is wanting an armor tank...
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-04-05 14:43:59 UTC
Well, they don't *have* to be utlity highs.

Their ROF bonuses cancel out, so those 6 turrets are effectively 7.5 turrets to the Mael's 8 turrets.

Now throw on 2 launchers, do those 2 launchers equal the missing "half turret"?
I'm guessing not, because
*no ship bonus for those launchers, that 0.5 turret gets 1.0/.75x the DPS, to be 2/3* of an "unbonused turret"
Then you factor in the gyros (and it pretty much always makes sense to add another gyro, than to mix ballstic units and gyros), and I suspect it is going to come out very close.


Note earlier an analysis basically said the Mael has 10.67 effective turrets, whereas the Temp has 10, the differenct being 0.67, ie 2/3 of a turret.
Is that 2/3 of a turret, boosted by gryos, better than 2 launchers, for PvE?

I suspect given the extra low, if DPS is all you are looking for, the Tempest can be fit to out do a mael
-until one factors in drones

With 100 units worth of drone space/control the Mael can put out 3 heavies and 2 mediums (for maximum drone DPS - and a small 5m3 drone stays in the bay)
The tempest, with 75, only can put out 2 heavies, 2 mediums, and a light

As a medium does 2x the damage of a light, and a heavy nearly 2x the damage of a medium, this means the maels drone DPS is essentially 1 medium + 1 light drone more than a Temp, against big slow targets at least.

So then its 2/3 of a turret, boosted by gryos + 1 medium + 1 light drone + better tank, vs 2 launchers + extra low
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-04-05 15:45:40 UTC
Until the tier 3 BC came out, the Tempest was the best battlecruiser in the game. (may still be depending on your points of view)

Plus, tempest is infinitely more sexy.

Haters gonna hate.
Broken Thoughts
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-04-05 17:16:55 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
snip Tempest snip battlecruiser snip


Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

Haters gonna hate.


well...
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#34 - 2012-04-05 18:17:07 UTC
They meant battlecruiser. Compare its stats to a shield cane for pvp.
Lars Zundi
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#35 - 2012-04-05 21:05:25 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Until the tier 3 BC came out, the Tempest was the best battlecruiser in the game. (may still be depending on your points of view)

Plus, tempest is infinitely more sexy.

Haters gonna hate.


Truth.
Still my 'BC' of choice.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#36 - 2012-04-06 00:15:53 UTC
Kattshiro wrote:
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ROF boost on turrets are also way better than damage and better than missle ROF bonuses if you take in to acount the random nature of turrets and the fact that more shots in a span of time is more dice rolls. IM a warmmer 40k Ork player I should know.



Greater chance of wrecking shots (crits) I believe is what he's driving at.



No, is aiming on the legendary fact that even if there is a only a 1 in 10 chance to miss, you still do miss in the wrong moment if you just use on dice. More dices mean less extreme results. Single critical will mater less and single miss will mater less too.

The more dices, the more homogeneous results you get. Though in eve is is imho not very important, unlike in w40k.

Remove insurance.
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