These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

swap T3 5% with CS 3% link bonuses
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Artemis Ahab
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-04-04 21:02:15 UTC
Alua Oresson wrote:


There IS a reason to use a CS as a booster. Just because you have not thought of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The reason to use a CS as a booster is when you are running max sized fleets against each other. Large fleet battles you want your Booster ships where they can get reps. If not, you can be sure that someone will have a maxed out prober that WILL probe out your T3 booster and pop it.

I do agree that in small gangs a T3 off grid booster is effective, but don't make absolute statements unless you know all there is to know about a subject.

I don't fly large fleets, so forgive me if i'm wrong, buy won't a fleet large enough that "they WILL probe out your T3 booster" (your absolute statement) also have enough dps to pretty quickly pop even a CS? Like I said, I don't fly fleets that large, so i don't know.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#62 - 2012-04-04 21:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
delete
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#63 - 2012-04-05 00:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Joyelle wrote:
@ FT Diomedes
are you asserting that t3 boosting ships can't be found and killed? Lol
one shotted boosting t3
If my noob corp than do it ... .A command ship won't go down in one shot and would be simply ignored until the end of the fight in most cases.

@ Lili Lu
Your comment has a **** ton of rant which clearly shows that you really have an idea of what you are talking about. Please, do come back when you are back to your senses and for the record, I'm not arguing with anyone here. I'm expressing my thoughts and anyone is free to relate to it however they deem necessary or move on.

@ ahab
didn't you know? that anyone in a NPC corp is a noob. *shocked*


Your kill board link doesn't work, but i did find where you killed a Proteus with information warfare links. LOL! I'm not sure whether that proves my point or not. Big smile

I'm not saying that no one ever kills an off-grid T3 booster alt. Sure, it happens, but not so often as people kill ships that are on-grid.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lili Lu
#64 - 2012-04-05 01:31:22 UTC
Joyelle wrote:
@ FT Diomedes
are you asserting that t3 boosting ships can't be found and killed? Lol
one shotted boosting t3
If my noob corp than do it ... .A command ship won't go down in one shot and would be simply ignored until the end of the fight in most cases.

@ Lili Lu
Your comment has a **** ton of rant which clearly shows that you really have an idea of what you are talking about. Please, do come back when you are back to your senses and for the record, I'm not arguing with anyone here. I'm expressing my thoughts and anyone is free to relate to it however they deem necessary or move on.

@ ahab
didn't you know? that anyone in a NPC corp is a noob. *shocked*

No you.Lol It's you that are full of ****.

But really, is it so hard to post with your main?
Joyelle
SludgeSlingers
#65 - 2012-04-05 01:34:38 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Joyelle wrote:
@ FT Diomedes
are you asserting that t3 boosting ships can't be found and killed? Lol
one shotted boosting t3
If my noob corp than do it ... .A command ship won't go down in one shot and would be simply ignored until the end of the fight in most cases.

@ Lili Lu
Your comment has a **** ton of rant which clearly shows that you really have an idea of what you are talking about. Please, do come back when you are back to your senses and for the record, I'm not arguing with anyone here. I'm expressing my thoughts and anyone is free to relate to it however they deem necessary or move on.

@ ahab
didn't you know? that anyone in a NPC corp is a noob. *shocked*

No you.Lol It's you that are full of ****.

But really, is it so hard to post with your main?

He definitely mad. Lol
Lili Lu
#66 - 2012-04-05 01:47:01 UTC
Joyelle wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Joyelle wrote:
@ FT Diomedes
are you asserting that t3 boosting ships can't be found and killed? Lol
one shotted boosting t3
If my noob corp than do it ... .A command ship won't go down in one shot and would be simply ignored until the end of the fight in most cases.

@ Lili Lu
Your comment has a **** ton of rant which clearly shows that you really have an idea of what you are talking about. Please, do come back when you are back to your senses and for the record, I'm not arguing with anyone here. I'm expressing my thoughts and anyone is free to relate to it however they deem necessary or move on.

@ ahab
didn't you know? that anyone in a NPC corp is a noob. *shocked*

No you.Lol It's you that are full of ****.

But really, is it so hard to post with your main?

He definitely mad. Lol

oh snap!

Not mad, like i said, sad for your impending loss. I will hold you when the end comes.P
Joyelle
SludgeSlingers
#67 - 2012-04-05 01:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Joyelle
Lili Lu wrote:
Joyelle wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Joyelle wrote:
@ FT Diomedes
are you asserting that t3 boosting ships can't be found and killed? Lol
one shotted boosting t3
If my noob corp than do it ... .A command ship won't go down in one shot and would be simply ignored until the end of the fight in most cases.

@ Lili Lu
Your comment has a **** ton of rant which clearly shows that you really have an idea of what you are talking about. Please, do come back when you are back to your senses and for the record, I'm not arguing with anyone here. I'm expressing my thoughts and anyone is free to relate to it however they deem necessary or move on.

@ ahab
didn't you know? that anyone in a NPC corp is a noob. *shocked*

No you.Lol It's you that are full of ****.

But really, is it so hard to post with your main?

He definitely mad. Lol

oh snap!

Not mad, like i said, sad for your impending loss. I will hold you when the end comes.P

I don't know what you are talking about but if you are asserting that I have a t3 boosting alt then you are very wrong. Lol
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-04-05 02:17:17 UTC
Off-grid boosting should just be removed as a whole.
Alua Oresson
League of the Shieldy
SLYCE Pirates
#69 - 2012-04-05 10:47:08 UTC
Artemis Ahab wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:


There IS a reason to use a CS as a booster. Just because you have not thought of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The reason to use a CS as a booster is when you are running max sized fleets against each other. Large fleet battles you want your Booster ships where they can get reps. If not, you can be sure that someone will have a maxed out prober that WILL probe out your T3 booster and pop it.

I do agree that in small gangs a T3 off grid booster is effective, but don't make absolute statements unless you know all there is to know about a subject.

I don't fly large fleets, so forgive me if i'm wrong, buy won't a fleet large enough that "they WILL probe out your T3 booster" (your absolute statement) also have enough dps to pretty quickly pop even a CS? Like I said, I don't fly fleets that large, so i don't know.


It depends on how many logistics ships you have. That is also why they are generally fit with the largest buffer with the highest resists that you can generally manage. They are generally so heavily tanked that it is usually a better idea to take out the opposing DPS, logistics or tackle before hitting the Command ships.

For full fleets you generally will run 15-20ish logistics ships and have the linchpin ships put on your watchlist. Command ships and combat recons are also usually prelocked by some logistics.

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#70 - 2012-04-05 11:57:47 UTC
Alua Oresson wrote:


It depends on how many logistics ships you have. That is also why they are generally fit with the largest buffer with the highest resists that you can generally manage. They are generally so heavily tanked that it is usually a better idea to take out the opposing DPS, logistics or tackle before hitting the Command ships.





On grid Commands should always be target ed before sub cap dps..... The increase in tank of all ships on the field can be increased by 70+ % through increased resists and significant reductions in the duration of RR modules. Furthermore, a large fleet with several hundred sub caps will be able to nearly insta kill almost anything on the field, and yes this includes a super brick Fleet Command.

Having your gang links on grid is always a liability as it significantly increases the chance of loosing your super powerful tank bonuses. Higher bonuses + off grid is a much more intelligent approach... You're reaching for reasons that are nearly non existent Alua Oresson... Thankfully ccp agrees with the op as changes are already slated to happen.
Alua Oresson
League of the Shieldy
SLYCE Pirates
#71 - 2012-04-05 19:42:11 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:


It depends on how many logistics ships you have. That is also why they are generally fit with the largest buffer with the highest resists that you can generally manage. They are generally so heavily tanked that it is usually a better idea to take out the opposing DPS, logistics or tackle before hitting the Command ships.





On grid Commands should always be target ed before sub cap dps..... The increase in tank of all ships on the field can be increased by 70+ % through increased resists and significant reductions in the duration of RR modules. Furthermore, a large fleet with several hundred sub caps will be able to nearly insta kill almost anything on the field, and yes this includes a super brick Fleet Command.

Having your gang links on grid is always a liability as it significantly increases the chance of loosing your super powerful tank bonuses. Higher bonuses + off grid is a much more intelligent approach... You're reaching for reasons that are nearly non existent Alua Oresson... Thankfully ccp agrees with the op as changes are already slated to happen.



In theory, yes you can nearly instapop anything. In practice, it takes a bit longer to kill a command ship. Usually its a matter of who can pop DPS or logistics the fastest. In some cases it is beneficial to pop the command ships first, yes. I'm not fully versed in the reasons for keeping command ships on field, but I am aware that quite a few of the major 0.0 alliances do keep command ships on the field. If for no other reason than it has the largest tank and you can sit your FC in it. And usually the FC's are very well known to the other alliances.

Also, I wasn't debating against the changes to ganglinks or T3's. Someone said there was no reason to have command ships on the field. And that is not true. There are reasons and people do it quite often. However, I do agree that the T3's that give larger boosts than command ships should be fixed, I also believe that offgrid boosting is just silly mechanics.

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#72 - 2012-04-05 20:20:33 UTC  |  Edited by: axxeessee
Muad 'dib wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
axxeessee wrote:
People are really not thinking this change through. As much as it technically makes sense to have the dedicated t2 ship be better at it, when it comes to how it is actually used in game it would be terrible.

Right now, small (and solo) players can safely roam with a T3 which gives them the advantage they need to be able to fight with odds against them.

Giving the strong links to the T2 would mean that a small roaming gang would be at a disadvantage when they would go and fight off someone bigger, since the big fleet / defending fleet would be able to field the command ship, which would not be really possible for the small fleet / solo player.

Only thing it would do is give an advantage to people that stay in their home system because they could park a Claymore/Vulture/etc on their pos or home station, and disadvantage the people actually coming to fight them.

(Yes, you can have your T2 command ship in the fleet, but everyone knows their DPS is really subpar and youd rather have pretty much anything instead of them, and this applies specially for solo'ers, these kind of people will have to still take a t3 with them, and they will be already at a disadvantage going in against people).

All in all, does it ''make sense with ship roles'', yes, would it be good for the game, not at all.



This guy is right. Basically you are nerfing the small gang pvp that still is alive in this game.


Terribad idea OP.



No that is not the point, you are missing it completely a small gang with LESS bonus is a GOOD thing, while a BIG bonus for BIG fleet is better.

garmon agrees here and i know this is a different concept but i belive it to be a real and worth while trade.

tasty full bonus (5%) are CS only and thus are harder to use with a light fleet, the T3 version with its 3% is way easier to use, safer and can keep up with a small gang.

The idia is to change NOTHING about the T3 or the CS other than swap the bonus amounts to it makes more sense, more committed = biger bonus THATS eve - not the way it is now.

wake up.



As far as I know, Garmon agrees links are overpowered, which I also agree with, what I never heard him say is that CS should give better links then T3s. Both subject are extremely different.

Id really like you to tell me how a small gang with less bonus is a good thing. I mean, youre with 3 friends in BCs and you go attack the main system of a big alliance, why should they have the upper hand, on top of actual numbers and possibility to reship/refit, youre already at a pretty good disadvantage in my opinion. Giving CS the bigger bonus gives a defenders advantage, which seems ''logical'' yes, but is pretty bad for the game.

With the current situation, yes CS are underused, but that doesnt change the fact that they currently give the opportunity for small gang to AT LEAST be on the same playing field in that regards with blobs. Making CS links better instantly means that small gang and solo STARTS at a disadvantage on top of the fact that they dont have numbers.

I dont see the problem with the current situation, if a big gang wants perfect boost, it can have it, if a small gang or a soloer wants it, he can have it. The only real issue is that the ship that has been deemed by CCP to be the specialist is not being used, but seriously CS are not the only ships in the game that have this issue. The only argument I would agree with is training time, right now it is indeed way too easy to have perfect boosts on a t3 in pretty much no time.

A change that makes ''sense'' is not necessarily a ''good'' change.

Dont even get me started with on grid boosting...
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-04-05 20:43:29 UTC
axxeessee wrote:

Id really like you to tell me how a small gang with less bonus is a good thing. I mean, youre with 3 friends in BCs and you go attack the main system of a big alliance, why should they have the upper hand, on top of actual numbers and possibility to reship/refit, youre already at a pretty good disadvantage in my opinion. Giving CS the bigger bonus gives a defenders advantage, which seems ''logical'' yes, but is pretty bad for the game.


why on earth do you think that a small skirmish fleet requires the biggest boosts to invade the larger group? The big alliance if they are running links in their own space will be whatever the best links are regardless of mobility or covops unscanable etc.

I bet if you ask garnom if the links would be better balanced if the best skirmish link ships were not as good, he would agree.

He might also just come up with a daft CS fit and use that and get top bonuses anyway... sure but it wont have a covops cloak or be practically unscanable but thats the price one should pay for the best stuff.


Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Yahrr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-04-05 21:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Yahrr
axxeessee wrote:
Right now, small (and solo) players can safely roam with a T3 which gives them the advantage they need to be able to fight with odds against them.

Giving the strong links to the T2 would mean that a small roaming gang would be at a disadvantage when they would go and fight off someone bigger, since the big fleet / defending fleet would be able to field the command ship, which would not be really possible for the small fleet / solo player.


This must be something new then. I really remember Tuskers fighting against the bigger number solo and in small groups all the way back to 2008. I also remember us being owned while we outnumbered the enemy. I remember Garmon soloing our fleet in an arty thrasher picking off people one by one. This was way before the introduction of T3 commands and he did not have a command ship backing him up. I'm not even sure if he had the implants like he has today.

If going solo was possible in 2008, then why isn't it possible anymore now? The only reason I see is that if you don't bring boosters, the enemy will, because it's way to easy to bring boosters at the moment. The only way to level the field is to bring your own boosters because obviously, you cannot probe down a boosting alt with a not-astrometrics-implanted main character while fighting the boosted enemy. Duh.

axxeessee wrote:

I mean, youre with 3 friends in BCs and you go attack the main system of a big alliance, why should they have the upper hand

Not sure if this is a troll really but I'll try. I'll try it by quoting you another time.
axxeessee wrote:

I mean, youre with 3 friends in BCs and you go attack the main system of a big alliance, why should they have the upper hand