These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Marauders Thread Refresh and Hashed Out
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-03-29 15:53:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
This Quote is some suggested changes for Marauders both as a class and as individual ships. This quote comes from the Marauders: Underwhelming. Fix Ideas thread.

Leviticus Ander wrote:
basically, my thoughts on the revision are:
Kronos
* Increase Scan Resolution to 105-110 mm at the least.
* Increase Armor Explosive resistance to 30%.
* Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 150m3
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level changed to Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Paladin
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
* Increase Power Grid by 1,000. Not sure what the base would be, but after skills and all, the thing needs 1k more pg.
* Increase Armor Explosive resistance to 50%.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level changed to Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus
* Increase Capacitor Amount by 700 and decrease cap recharge time by at least 200 or 300 seconds.
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Vargur
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
* Increase Power Grid by 2,500. Again, not sure of the base.
* Increase Shield EM resistance to 40%.
** Add 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level bonus

Golem
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
* Increase Shield EM resistance to 30%.
** Add 5% rate of fire bonus for cruise and siege launchers
** Add 35% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Structure Hitpoints per level
** Change bonus to 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level

All Marauders
* Increase max base capacitor by 1,000 at the least. Do not adjust recharge times.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams changed to 150% bonus.
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to Salvager cycle time needs added.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to [weapon] damage increased to 125%.

Optional:

remove the individual resist buffs, change the repair boost to a 5-7.5% resist per level.

Notes:

Added resist changes for each ship. The changes keep them all in line. Looking at the other 3 Marauders, the Armor Explosion Resistance buff on the Paladin makes sense.
the 7.5% resist might be a bit too powerful in the long run unless they add a bit of a ship based nerf to the effectiveness of omni hardeners.

Other suggested changes are

1) Instead of giving a scan res and sensor strength buff, give them NPC (and only NPC) ewar immunity

2) GIve them ewar immunity across the board, and since CCP is looking at allowing certain ships to ignore ewar immunity, this will balance itself in pvp.

3) Reduction of size

4) Tracking/exp velocity and/or exp radius buffs.

5) Rebalance them all around to be as pvp capable as pirate bs's.

6) In conjunction with 5, allow them to have the ability to fit Command Modules
My opinion


  • NPC ewar immunity
  • Remove rep/shield boost bonuses and instead give them resist bonuses(mean more effective buffer tank) per level
  • Reduce web effectiveness bonus of Paladin and Kronos in exchanged for range and effectiveness bonus per level
  • Give the Vargur and Golem a 10% target painter effectiveness bonus per level
  • Cap increases for the ships that need it
  • Golem receives no penalties for using t2 missiles
  • Kronos gets 125 bw and 150m3 drone bay
  • Possible drone bw and bay buffs for the other Marauders as needed, if needed
  • Role bonus of 25% salvager cycle time
  • 150% bonus to tractor range and velocity(60km with t2 tractors)
  • Possibly reduce sig radius
  • CPU and PG buffs as needed, if needed


This is basically re-establishing another thread in order to clean it up and optimize it for better conversation.

Marauders are in need of some help and it deserves major discussion and consideration from CCP. We're just here to throw out a few possible suggestions that may help make their jobs easier if they find something that works.

Have at it...
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-03-29 17:08:34 UTC
you grabbed the first one I posted up, here's the one that's a little more balanced.

Quote:
my revisions on the revision are:
Kronos
* Increase Scan Resolution to 105-110 mm at the least.
** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 175m3
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level changed to Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Paladin
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
** Increase Power Grid by 800.
*** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 125m3.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level changed to Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Vargur
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
** Increase Power Grid by 2,000.
*** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 125m3.

Golem
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
** Change bonus to 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level.
*** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 125m3.

All Marauders
* Increase max base capacitor by 1,000 at the least. Do not adjust recharge times.
* change the 7.5% repair boost to a 5.5% resist boost per level.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams changed to 150% bonus.
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to Salvager cycle time needs added.
Role Bonus: 10% bonus to repair amount added.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to [weapon] damage increased to 115%.

this will put their total damage up, but not as much as it would otherwise, this will probably bring them to be in line with pirate BSs damage wise.
this level of complex ship, no matter what faction, would have at the very least a decent complement of drones. of course, the gallente would have more favoritism towards drones so they have a larger drone bay allowing replacements or to carry different types of drones.
looking at the power increases, I'm wondering if we should just make something like a 1500MW increase for all marauders, it would be slightly under power for the vargur, but it would fill the hole that the paladin needs, and would not take away from the current balance between them all. not to mention that I'm sure all 4 have a bit of a power loss.
I've taken a look at the numbers, and it would seem that 5.5 bonus to resists will equate to almost identical effect on reppers as the 7.5 does currently. this also allows for more of a buffer tank, or an equal tank while having a more effective ship.
the 10% additional repair bonus means that we have an even more powerful tank.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-03-29 17:21:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
leviticus ander wrote:
Your own post


The reason why I didn't post the provisions you just put out were because i don't entirely agree with all of them

Such as

  • I don't think they all need 125bw for drones

  • While I do think the rep/boost bonus needs changed for a resist bonus, I don't feel they should get another 10% rep/boost bonus on top of that

  • I don't know that the web bonus should have 10% effectiveness and 10% range, but maybe 5 range 5 effectiveness per lvl, but 10% may still be reasonable

  • Not sure the Vargur needs that much more powergrid

  • I don't think target painters need an optimal bonus as well because these ships don't have that great of range to require it, but perhaps it's reasonable as well

  • I'm not sure about the Vargur, Paladin, and Kronos, but I don't feel the Golem needs another 15% damage buff. I've flew one for quite a while and the dps was the least of my worries. My issues were ewarfare, and size.

  • Not sure that they all need a powergrid buff of 1500

    • While I may be incorrect and these all could possibly be reasonable suggestions, it just kinda feels as though it would not only OP these ships a bit more than necissary, but also that it would kinda base line them and they'd all
feel too similar.
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-03-29 17:52:18 UTC
as I noted, they are some of the most advanced sub caps that the races have built. they should be capable of fleeting a full set of heavy drones.
the 10% thing was just for the soloers that want to be able to internally tank things. it's not needed though.
the web bonuses I wasn't entirely sure about, maybe 5% strength, 10% range.
with the vargur, the original proposal said it needed 2500 after skills, which is 2000 base.
I was wondering about the target painter bonus too. but I figured there was a reason they wanted it so I left it alone.
the kronos could defintely use the damage boost, and with the golem, it might make cruise launchers a possibility, and by doing that they would fix the major complaints I saw in the original thread.
the extra 1500 is assuming that the vargur and paladin don't get their individual bonuses, and could be used to allow a broader selection of tools.
with the lower sensor strength, they might be OP in damage output, but they will still be fairly easily jammed.
I can kind of see where you're going with the feeling similar comment if we were to make them all fly 5 heavy drones, but they are all using different weapon systems, different tanking styles, and different fittings.

one thing that I forgot to note was something I had brought up in the original thread of rather than having ewar immunity, have NPC ewar resistance. so that the effectiveness of NPC ewar is still felt but reduced by 75-90%.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-03-30 16:51:03 UTC
bump
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-04-02 15:00:33 UTC
anyone? does this mean this idea is perfect and nobody can argue with it? or is it so purely terrible that people are afraid to comment?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-04-04 15:16:22 UTC
leviticus ander wrote:
anyone? does this mean this idea is perfect and nobody can argue with it? or is it so purely terrible that people are afraid to comment?



maybe people have spent so much time trying to get marauders fixed and CCP hasn't said or done anything. So perhaps they've just given up.
Screenlag
Armaggedon Inc.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#8 - 2012-04-04 15:46:01 UTC
Given their description, something that would allow them to traverse low/null with a slight chance of survival would perhaps work. Faster align time + warp strength? Also, that Kronos drone bonus is needed, that would put it in line with the others.
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-04-05 02:23:06 UTC
they are actually already faster than the other ships using the same hull. the kronos at least is quite a bit lighter than the others.
Bogosaurus
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-04-05 03:35:24 UTC
I've often thought that all they need is a sensor strength boost. They are pretty powerful ships as it is, but the low sensor strength makes them unuseable for pvp. Why limit them to pve?
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#11 - 2012-04-05 09:30:19 UTC
NPC EWAR Immunity?
Finally a reason to use one!

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Azuregos
RHP Mining Company
Federation of Respect Honor Passion Alliance.
#12 - 2012-04-05 11:22:10 UTC
[quote=Bogosaurus]I've often thought that all they need is a sensor strength boost. They are pretty powerful ships as it is, but the low sensor strength makes them unusable for pvp. Why limit them to pve?[/quote

And what role would they have in PvP? They are only marginally better than BS in large fleets and nearly cost as much as a carrier. In small fleets they would be more at home but still only something for the decadent..


Personally i would go in the opposite direction and make them THE number 1 tool to deal with NPCs

Damage Bonus: 125%-175%(depending on ship) instead of 100%, but only against NPCs and collidable structures
Tractor bonus: 150% instead of 100


Apart from that i think the Vargur is actually fine. It only lacked a bit of damage compared to the Mach.(150% bonus damage

The Paladin should get 35% more base capacitor and the cap bonus should be replaced by a tracking bonus, the webber bonus by a ROF bonus, the repair-bonus should be increased to 10-15%. (125% bonus damage) (supposed to be a pulse-fit, maybe adjust powergrid and locking range

The Kronos should also loose the Web bonus and get an optimal range bonus instead, 25km higher locking range, repair bonus as for the paladin and crucially a 300% tractor bonus instead of 150% as for the other ships. (175% bonus damage, supposed to be Rail Fit

The Golem is a complete mystery to me and therefore i cannot comment on this on


I think immunity to NPC E-War would be a bit over the top considering the insane DPS these ships could now dish out. Missions that are particularly bad with e-war should be balanced instead of the ships

I think with these changes the ships will be close in terms of DPS while the Kronos has the longest range. It also has tracking problems below 20km against cruisers and below 10km against BS. The Paladin has the shortest range, but very steady damage. The Vargur has longer range than the Paladin, but will do less DPS. It has however the advantage to change damage types and will therefore actually be better compared to the Paladin and Kronos if they are not shooting in their respective resistence holes

This are just some quick thoughts and nothing elaborate....feel free to mock it.
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-04-05 14:48:20 UTC
175% would be scary. imagine if someone were to put blasters on it?
if you were to do this, have 2 different boosts, like 110 for large blasters 175 for rails. but then you would also run into people complaining that the kronos gets uber boost to their ultimate long range weapons.
and actually, if you are willing to spend on it, you can get the tracking on rails up to about .045 with internal things only (tracking bonus, scripted tracking comps) and could probably get even higher with an oni supporting it.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-04-05 16:56:08 UTC
Tarn Kugisa wrote:
NPC EWAR Immunity?
Finally a reason to use one!



Seriously, this is the only way to fix them in pve without making them rediculous in pvp. Even if you didn't increase their sensors, increasing their dps and possibly range, tracking, rof, etc. etc. would mean if you didn't keep this ship locked down, you'd get boned.

I look at it this way...

What are marauders meant to do?
They're meant to be the ultimate pve ship

What was CCP's design plan with the Marauder?
Make it the ultimate pve ship, but also make it practically unusable in pvp through size, scan res, sensor strength, and agility.

What is the best way to make them pve kings without effecting CCP's design plans of making them inop for pvp?
NPC ewar immunity

Seriously though, even with npc ewar immunity these ships will still be quite inneffective for other forms of pve above lvl 4 missions.
They're too expensive to risk losing them to pirates while running lvl 5's. They're too large to be able to solo lvl 5's, they'd take too much damage and be forced to warp out. They'll be too risky to use in null sec without an extremely secure zone. Just taking them through a worm hole would be risky enough, let alone actually using it in the wormhole.
The only thing npc ewar immunity would do is make them the lvl 4 mission kings, and POSSIBLY, make them a bit more usable if not actually usable in general for incursions.
The npc ewar immunity might possibly make them the kings of incursions, plus it would mean that other types of incursions would actually be flown instead of just that one type that's super easy because it has no ewar.(not sure which it is)

Apart from that, there are a few very minor changes that would need to be made.
Belshazzar Babylon
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-04-22 08:57:42 UTC
leviticus ander wrote:
as I noted, they are some of the most advanced sub caps that the races have built. they should be capable of fleeting a full set of heavy drones.
the 10% thing was just for the soloers that want to be able to internally tank things. it's not needed though.
the web bonuses I wasn't entirely sure about, maybe 5% strength, 10% range.
with the vargur, the original proposal said it needed 2500 after skills, which is 2000 base.
I was wondering about the target painter bonus too. but I figured there was a reason they wanted it so I left it alone.
the kronos could defintely use the damage boost, and with the golem, it might make cruise launchers a possibility, and by doing that they would fix the major complaints I saw in the original thread.
the extra 1500 is assuming that the vargur and paladin don't get their individual bonuses, and could be used to allow a broader selection of tools.
with the lower sensor strength, they might be OP in damage output, but they will still be fairly easily jammed.
I can kind of see where you're going with the feeling similar comment if we were to make them all fly 5 heavy drones, but they are all using different weapon systems, different tanking styles, and different fittings.

one thing that I forgot to note was something I had brought up in the original thread of rather than having ewar immunity, have NPC ewar resistance. so that the effectiveness of NPC ewar is still felt but reduced by 75-90%.


I love my 10% thing on my Kronos, and I know there is no way the Kronos is going to get a damage boost. It effectively fields 8 large turrets plus 3 utility slots.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#16 - 2012-04-23 03:19:29 UTC
I support any and all buffs to Marauders.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Katerwaul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-04-23 03:39:12 UTC
I want to fit my Golem to be relevant when shooting at smaller ships so I don't have to wait for my drones to eat them. It's a Marauder. Smaller ships should be more afraid of it.
Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business.
LT Alter
Ryba.
White Squall.
#18 - 2012-04-23 04:02:07 UTC
In my opinion the marauders are absolutely fine, you just have to fly them the right way. I'll take any buffs though.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-04-23 04:38:52 UTC
LT Alter wrote:
In my opinion the marauders are absolutely fine, you just have to fly them the right way. I'll take any buffs though.


Considering caldari can't use a caldari ship to fly a caldari mission that uses jaiiming whichis caldari's strong suit, I wouldn't say marauders are fine.
Tatiana W1sla
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-06-08 08:52:42 UTC
npc ewar immunit,and a better bonus on tractor beams and salvagers would make them great with the role they were supposed to be great
12Next page