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the importance of T2 BPOs

Author
opati
Gilbatron Heavy Industries
#1 - 2012-04-04 21:21:33 UTC
CCP Diagoras is giving away some interesting information about the importance of T2 BPOs

https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras

some of the quotes:

Quote:
Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention.


Quote:
89.77% of 1400mm II, 82.00% of Tachyon II, 87.34% of 425mm Rail II, 74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II produced in March were from invention.


Quote:
66.13% of Ishtars and 63.53% of Zealots produced in March 2012 were produced via invention. #tweetfleet


Quote:
27.60% of Curses and 22.16% of Pilgrims produced in March 2012 were from invention. #tweetfleet


since im absolutely no industrial player ill let you do the discussion, should be an interesting read though
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-04-04 21:43:22 UTC
It's probably due to the demand. The demand of command ships is very low because the ships are not in a good place right now so most of the demand is satisfied by BPO holders and inventors cannot compete. Sleipnirs are a lot more popular than Abso's so there will be a lot more trade. If I remember right there is roughly 30-40 sleips traded in Jita per day compared to 10-20 Abso's.

But with modules like T2 guns, the demand is huge because they can be used by a lot more people, notably T2 guns are always used on T1 ships so inventors have people to sell to.

In before people argue that T2 BPOs are unfair wah wah wah.
Caractacus Dio
Inception Innovations
#3 - 2012-04-04 22:06:01 UTC
BPO owners are forced to produce from said BPOs.

Inventors can diversify.

If margins are terrible on Absolutions but brilliant on T2 1400s. I know which the inventor will go for, and unfortunately the Absolution BPO holder has no choice. This may explain why some items are mostly produced via BPOs, which saturate the market due to low demand so why would inventors even bother.
Kenshin Tzestu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-04-04 22:09:58 UTC
More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market.
Kalipoli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-04-04 23:15:36 UTC
That is a good point, that T2 BPO owners dont have the ability to switch to more profitable items on the fly as inventors do.

T2 BPO owners are at an advantage no matter what when it comes to manufacturing one or a few items but the limited supply and costs of T2 BPOS inhibits the individual T2 BPO holders ability to be change production as the market shifts.

What i get from this is that T2 BPO's are needed in game to fill demand that invention doesnt seem to supply but its a double edged sward because invention allows a player to diversify and change tactics with the market.

T2 BPO's are necessary but only on a select few items with such low trade volume that an inventor wont waste the time for the profit or lack thereof
Kalipoli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-04-04 23:19:24 UTC
It would seem that the only people who complain about T2 BPO's being unfair are those who do not have them.

The only thing CCP could do to please these people is to do another lottery or install a game mechanism that would allow for hard to achieve or low chance at success method of seeding new T2 BPO's to the market. But this would be pointless as their intention may be to just wait till all the T2 BPO's are blown up and gradually eliminated leaving us only with invention and no chance at a T2 BPO as they would no longer exist in game.
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
#7 - 2012-04-05 00:37:01 UTC
opati wrote:
CCP Diagoras is giving away some interesting information about the importance of T2 BPOs

https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras

some of the quotes:

Quote:
Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention.


Quote:
66.13% of Ishtars ... were produced via invention. #tweetfleet


since im absolutely no industrial player ill let you do the discussion, should be an interesting read though


Lets see, the Absolution and Sleipnirs are worthless so that explains why so few people invent them. T2 BPOs can meet and/or exceed demand for that item.

Ishtars however are a mini Nyx that can be used in highsec. They are high in demand and without a doubt one of the best level 4 mission running ships available. Any Gallente skilled pilot can run a level 4 mission in half the time with an Ishtar than using a battleship. They have a drone bonus, huge drone bay, one hell of a tank, plus the speed of a cruiser. In the hands of even a ******** pilot they can blow through missions.

Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-04-05 01:48:02 UTC
opati wrote:
CCP Diagoras is giving away some interesting information about the importance of T2 BPOs

https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras

some of the quotes:

Quote:
Only 7.07% of Absolutions and 23.62% of Sleipnirs produced in March 2012 were produced through invention.


Quote:
89.77% of 1400mm II, 82.00% of Tachyon II, 87.34% of 425mm Rail II, 74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II produced in March were from invention.


Quote:
66.13% of Ishtars and 63.53% of Zealots produced in March 2012 were produced via invention. #tweetfleet


Quote:
27.60% of Curses and 22.16% of Pilgrims produced in March 2012 were from invention. #tweetfleet


since im absolutely no industrial player ill let you do the discussion, should be an interesting read though


Yeah a lot of the OTHER disparity here is - were they invented by alliances that hold decent full reaction t2 component moons ??

There are 2 actual ways of bringing the production prices down for these ships. ONE is t2 BPO's the other is to fully react the t2 components.

Right now about 80% of the Jump Freighter price for example is technetium.

.

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#9 - 2012-04-05 02:33:48 UTC
I'll disagree and say that T2 BPOs are not necessary for the market to function. Invention could easily pickup the slack. And as mentioned many times before, the presence of T2 BPOs only impacts the low-demand, low-volume markets where the BPO owner can produce enough to meet demand and squeeze the inventors out (no datacore/decryptor costs, no copy slot costs, less materials).

Now, if datacores take a price jump, as expected - then you can expect the cries to return for the removal of T2 BPOs.

Do I think T2 BPOs should be removed? Eh... yes / no / not really. I think if CCP would let the T1 BPC's ME/PE level have an effect on the resulting T2 BPC, that would change things a bit, and if CCP were to make datacores cheaper, that would help as well.

(My pet formula for T2 BPC ME is "-5 + Sqrt(T1 BPC ME) + decryptor_adjustment".)
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#10 - 2012-04-05 02:36:01 UTC
Increase manufacturing time of T2 BPO's that have more than 50% of production.

Problem solved.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2012-04-05 03:05:06 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
I'll disagree and say that T2 BPOs are not necessary for the market to function. Invention could easily pickup the slack. And as mentioned many times before, the presence of T2 BPOs only impacts the low-demand, low-volume markets where the BPO owner can produce enough to meet demand and squeeze the inventors out (no datacore/decryptor costs, no copy slot costs, less materials).

I don't think anybody argues that invention couldn't pick up the slack, rather the price would have to rise for there to be an incentive to pick up the slack.

As an end-user, I'm quite thankful that BPO holders are willing to produce stuff that inventors don't want to.
Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-04-05 03:28:51 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

As an end-user, I'm quite thankful that BPO holders are willing to produce stuff that inventors don't want to.


It's absurd that there are still T2 BPOs in the game that allow a minority to completely circumvent a major mechanism of the game. Any "important" corner of the market that is dominated by production from BPOs would be quickly filled by invention production if there was a profit incentive to do so which there would be if the playing field were leveled.

It's not that inventors don't want to produce certain items, it's that there is no profit incentive to produce certain items against a competitor who obviously has a major advantage.
Samuel Tuffstein
A Dead Mans Tale
#13 - 2012-04-05 07:16:55 UTC
Interesting stats and quiet funny, even with a fully researched Absolution BPO the profits on an Absolution are minimalistic, infact a Absolution BPO holder would be better of making Hurricanes right now.Big smile

However, to measure the impact of T2 BPOs on the market it would be alot more interesting to know how many T2 BPOs are actualy out there.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#14 - 2012-04-05 08:59:54 UTC
Kalipoli wrote:
That is a good point, that T2 BPO owners dont have the ability to switch to more profitable items on the fly as inventors do.


That is incorrect. Producing from a T2 BPO does not exclude one from doing invention.

Its not that you can do one OR another. If you have T2 BPO you can do T2 BPO production AND invention. If you do not have T2 BPO you can do ONLY invention.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#15 - 2012-04-05 11:22:02 UTC
If T2 BPOs were removed/nerfed/turned into turnips then the size of the Absolution market would still be tiny and pretty much pointless to invent for.

The answer to any market where T2 BPOs dominate is to make the item in question less terrible.
Space Wanderer
#16 - 2012-04-05 13:20:36 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
If T2 BPOs were removed/nerfed/turned into turnips then the size of the Absolution market would still be tiny and pretty much pointless to invent for.

The answer to any market where T2 BPOs dominate is to make the item in question less terrible.


Somebody seems in need to learn about supply and demand.... As tiny as the demand is, unless it isn't 0 if the supply drops to 0 the prices of that stuff will rise, and suddenly it would be worth inventing for it.

Things wouldn't change dramatically if those T2 BPO were removed, i guess. The average prices would just raise enough to cover for invention costs and a tiny profit. Possibly, given the low transcation volumes, the market would show some volatility so that the prices would stay low until inventors can see a profit. Should they go lower, inventors would shift focus and the prices would spike, which would lure inventors back to it, and so on....
Ragnacrok
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-04-05 13:46:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ragnacrok
This "T2 Bpo producers can't switch production easy" is very funny.

Do you actually mean they use their T2 bpo on their 10 production lines ?

We can, for sure, trust them for not competing on the lucrative "invention" modules or ships with their remaining production lines, they already got an isk printing machine after all...

I understand how badly they must be suffering when they own op to 85% of a market and make it completely pointless for any other producer to make inventions.
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-04-05 14:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Salo Aldeland
The reason T2 products that are mainly made from BPO's have a low price isn't because the privileged oligarchs are depressing the price to stick it to plucky proletariat inventors. Their prices are low because nobody wants to buy them.

You see somebody getting three quarters of a pie and demand your fair share. Your tiny slice is not enough to make you very full, but they're pigging out. That is clearly unjust!

What I see is a really tiny pie, forget about it, and go grab a slice of the biggest, richest damn pastry I can find.

Inventing command ships isn't pointless because BPO holders can crush the competition with their magic money faucets. It's pointless because hardly anybody can use them, hardly anybody that can use them ever does, and hardly any of them that get used need replacing.
Plyn
Uncharted.
#19 - 2012-04-05 14:36:56 UTC
Kalipoli wrote:
That is a good point, that T2 BPO owners dont have the ability to switch to more profitable items on the fly as inventors do.

T2 BPO owners are at an advantage no matter what when it comes to manufacturing one or a few items but the limited supply and costs of T2 BPOS inhibits the individual T2 BPO holders ability to be change production as the market shifts.

What i get from this is that T2 BPO's are needed in game to fill demand that invention doesnt seem to supply but its a double edged sward because invention allows a player to diversify and change tactics with the market.

T2 BPO's are necessary but only on a select few items with such low trade volume that an inventor wont waste the time for the profit or lack thereof

This is a fallacy.

If the T2 BPOs didn't exist and supply dropped, the items they were previously producing would suddenly become more attractive to inventors and some people would move over to fill the gap and their pockets.

The only items that would never be invented are the items that people literally don't use. Generally it's because those items are flawed in their stats. T2 armor plates, for instance, really should be better than meta 4, but they aren't. In fact they provide the same bonus but are a lot harder to fit. Devs should look into buffing T2 items where this is the case, IMHO, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Devan Reale
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-04-05 17:50:33 UTC
Frederick Sanger wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:

As an end-user, I'm quite thankful that BPO holders are willing to produce stuff that inventors don't want to.


It's absurd that there are still T2 BPOs in the game that allow a minority to completely circumvent a major mechanism of the game. Any "important" corner of the market that is dominated by production from BPOs would be quickly filled by invention production if there was a profit incentive to do so which there would be if the playing field were leveled.

It's not that inventors don't want to produce certain items, it's that there is no profit incentive to produce certain items against a competitor who obviously has a major advantage.


So do the game a favor: buy a bunch of PLEX, buy as many BPOs as you can, and trash them. Problem solved (from your perspective).
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