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The solution to hiding from war in NPC corps? You decide.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2012-04-04 01:32:57 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
the idea you stated about having NPC corps wardec each other removes the benefit of immunity to wardec
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cY1PJ0C-v3Y/Td0c5Q49ZMI/AAAAAAAAAAM/cOLTegTBVgw/s1600/facepalm-570x456.jpg

No, it doesn't.

Ok, lets try it this way: I'm defining immunity to wardec as not being able to have war declared on you. A system that has war being declared on an entity would make that entity not immune to wardec regardless of the source. Since you say your idea of having the NPC corps declare war against each other apparently doesn't run afoul your definition of immunity to wardec, I must ask: What is the definition you are using?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-04-04 01:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I must ask: What is the definition you are using?
Player//Corp//Alliance A who is actively hunting you and trying to make your life miserable is unable to wardec you. You are now in control of how many wardecs you get, by choosing what tax rate NPC corp to join. At 50% you are completely immune to wardecs. That's how I define it.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-04-04 01:49:09 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I must ask: What is the definition you are using?
Player//Corp//Alliance A who is actively hunting you and trying to make your life miserable is unable to wardec you. You are now in control of how many wardecs you get, by choosing what tax rate NPC corp to join. At 50% you are completely immune to wardecs. That's how I define it.

Slightly different than your original post I responded to stating higher tax corps would have a lower chance of going to war, but doesn't seem likely this system would get much use. Reasonable tax rates guarantee wars which you were trying to avoid and unreasonable ones just make corp hopping a better solution.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#104 - 2012-04-04 01:58:07 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
THE L0CK wrote:
Aqriue wrote:
faceless jabber.



Shut up faceless.

Faceless?

Let us see who you obviously based internet ego avatar on judging by your name.

This guy *double thumbs up* and your sig further backs up who you are trying to impersonate. Yes, really not hard figure out. You are basicly hiding your real world identity by using a known celebrity and just altering it to suit your needs.

Can't get anymore faceless if you hide behind someone else's identity and using their own catch phrase no mater how you change the spelling or wording around Roll. At least I don't pretend to be someone else Lol



You see me rolling.....oh wait, no you don't you faceless idiot.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2012-04-04 01:58:47 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Slightly different than your original post I responded to stating higher tax corps would have a lower chance of going to war, but doesn't seem likely this system would get much use. Reasonable tax rates guarantee wars which you were trying to avoid and unreasonable ones just make corp hopping a better solution.
What do you mean it wouldn't get much use? Players wouldn't bother choosing a specific NPC corp because they don't care which one they join? Or they would stay out of NPC corps entirely? Either way I think you're wrong, but it's beside the point. According to the spirit of EVE Online, hiding in NPC corps isn't something that should be encouraged. It should be available but discouraged.

Reasonable tax rates guarantee wars which I was trying to avoid? I'm not trying to avoid wars. But that's beside the point. My solution offers players the power to choose.

Corp hopping is always the way to get away from wars. Hence Nicolo da'Vicenza's idea to give it a cooldown that goes up if you use it too much. But it's beside the point. I'm not discussing corp hopping. I'm discussing not having to corp hop in the first place.

It's beside the point, it's beside the point, it's beside the point. Please stop.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-04-04 02:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Slightly different than your original post I responded to stating higher tax corps would have a lower chance of going to war, but doesn't seem likely this system would get much use. Reasonable tax rates guarantee wars which you were trying to avoid and unreasonable ones just make corp hopping a better solution.
What do you mean it wouldn't get much use? Players wouldn't bother choosing a specific NPC corp because they don't care which one they join? Or they would stay out of NPC corps entirely? Either way I think you're wrong, but it's beside the point. According to the spirit of EVE Online, hiding in NPC corps isn't something that should be encouraged. It should be available but discouraged.

Reasonable tax rates guarantee wars which I was trying to avoid? I'm not trying to avoid wars. But that's beside the point. My solution offers players the power to choose.

Corp hopping is always the way to get away from wars. Hence Nicolo da'Vicenza's idea to give it a cooldown that goes up if you use it too much. But it's beside the point. I'm not discussing corp hopping. I'm discussing not having to corp hop in the first place.

It's beside the point, it's beside the point, it's beside the point. Please stop.

Sorry, could have put that better:
Reasonable tax rates guarantee wars which you were trying to avoid
would better be stated as:
Reasonable tax rates guarantee wars which NPC corp members are trying to avoid

Personally I find 11% is a reasonable tax on top of the other restrictions for the immunity they currently offer. 15% would even be potentially fine, but going much higher seems less than reasonable. For those whose incomes fall under items that are subject to corp tax, I believe a 20%+ tax rate would begin a mass exodus. I could be wrong, but it would get me out, though the main reason I was thinking of leaving now were those other restrictions you don't consider significant.

I'm not going to argue the spirit of eve. I don't think it's worth arguing. I mainly don't care. The "EvE is a PvP game" statement, while fundamentally true doesn't mean I have to engage in ship to ship PvP specifically and also means I will employ any means I can to get around it and resume my operations. Eliminating NPC corps won't be the end of that. Besides one would think that in a sandbox conflict avoidance and adaptation, especially when at a disadvantage, would be a valid tactic.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-04-04 02:33:22 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Besides one would think that in a sandbox conflict avoidance and adaptation, especially when at a disadvantage, would be a valid tactic.
Key phrase: AT A DISADVANTAGE

By all means. You can join the safe NPC corp.

and pay 50% tax. Heck, just join the 33% tax corp, and you'll usually not be at war. You can just not play (maybe play another game or go out of the house) when you are. I don't understand why you think a 25% tax rate is really a big deal. It's not like in the real world where you have bills to pay and you've got a 10% finance margin. In EVE, all of your money is liquid spending money. None of it gets put toward living expenses.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-04-04 02:54:40 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Besides one would think that in a sandbox conflict avoidance and adaptation, especially when at a disadvantage, would be a valid tactic.
Key phrase: AT A DISADVANTAGE

By all means. You can join the safe NPC corp.

and pay 50% tax. Heck, just join the 33% tax corp, and you'll usually not be at war. You can just not play (maybe play another game or go out of the house) when you are. I don't understand why you think a 25% tax rate is really a big deal. It's not like in the real world where you have bills to pay and you've got a 10% finance margin. In EVE, all of your money is liquid spending money. None of it gets put toward living expenses.

This is an aggressors game. Rarely is the defender at the advantage, and if they are it means the person who thought they were the aggressor was wrong. I'm not aware of anyone who initiates a wardec with the expectation of suffering greater loss than their opponent or not achieving their goal for starting the war in the first place. Additionally the aggressor has the advantage of preparing and making sure their not impeded by the war prior to even notifying their targets of their intent. If the corp receiving the wardec is not at a disadvantage, someone probably messed up.
Exact percentages isn't worth arguing either. With no loss due to upkeep you could argue that 90% is reasonable.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#109 - 2012-04-04 03:34:28 UTC
When they fix the war system, or give it a band aid or whatever, 2 things are going to happen;

1. People are going to cry
2. People are going to cry.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2012-04-04 04:27:05 UTC
@Tyberius Franklin:
Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Vyl Vit
#111 - 2012-04-04 04:36:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
Ever wonder why you folks aren't employed in anyone's Brain Trust? Why does it get your panties in a wad that some player who you do not know, and likely will never run into ever is in an NPC corp? How is that skin off your nose sufficient to require changing the game dynamics so radically? I love how "join a corps" is so easy to type. Slighty harder is "just join a GOOD corp." When all these people you send into any old corps start talking about the problems they have, you'll be the first to tell them, "You shoulda joined a GOOD corp." Honestly. How does this even concern you as a person or a player? I know. "I play EVE. It's EVE related. It's my business." No, it's not. What other paying customers are buying isn't your business. Your business is what you do.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#112 - 2012-04-04 05:29:32 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm thinking all NPC corps in EVE except the starter corps should have wars with other corps in EVE, and players in one NPC corp could shoot war targets from another hostile NPC corp freely in empire space. And you should probably have a limit to how long you can sit in the starter corp.



Strongly support this.

It's a boost to game lore, existing FW is a couple of steps from being like some Themepark MMOs Battlegrounds. Everyone not in Sov Null or WH space should have to deal with NPC politics and wars in a meaningful way.

It's a boost to Risk vs Reward, which has been sorely lacking in EVE of late.

It's a boost to anyone that likes to be immersed in the game world in which they play.

It's a boost to the Sandbox as it eliminates Themeparkish gameplay that doesn't belong in a game like this. ..No a Sandbox MMORPG does not mean there should be an option for Themepark style gameplay you ninnies.

It's a boost to PvP, yes EVE is a game almost entirely revolving around conflict and warfare, and hence PvP.

However, failing changes in this direction I support the idea of dumping all non newbies from NPC corps or making it extremely unpalatable to remain there.
Romar Agent
Doomheim
#113 - 2012-04-04 05:38:42 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Sentinel Smith wrote:
How about you let us play the game the way we want, and we let you play the game the way you want, rather than trying to force everyone into your style of play.

NPC Corps are find the way they are..

Because it's all connected, and people in NPC corps don't rate the ISK rewards that player corps get. You can play however the hell you want. You just can't play how you want and GET everything you want.

How did this get turned from "no-one should be in NPC-corps" into "NPC corps are indefinitely worse"? I didn't hear anyone complain about their shortcomings...

Again, people are fine with being in NPC corps. There are some who don't care about ISK/hour. I'm sitting on a couple bil, none of that made ingame (and for the record of our new crime hunters - you can review my PLEX history...).
Romar Agent
Doomheim
#114 - 2012-04-04 05:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Romar Agent
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Yeah, just have 'rookie corps' for trial accounts, and after that you're a 'freelancer' who can be wardec'd just like anyone else. We can even leave a 'Freelancer' chat channel for Nova Fox.
Joining a corp should take an exponentially longer amount of time when done in rapid succession, having a 'cooldown' timer - fixing the corp/alliance hopping exploit. A group of determined hoppers will eventually find themselves dec'd and alone with no one to help them.
I could much better live with single characters being wardeccable than being forced into silly one-man corps.

Say, single characters could be wardecced, but if they are in a corp you had to wardecc the corp.

Another solution would be to remove the ability to leave a corporation while wardecced.

I guess there a dozens of better solutions than pressing one groups playstyle onto the masses.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2012-04-04 06:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Romar Agent wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Yeah, just have 'rookie corps' for trial accounts, and after that you're a 'freelancer' who can be wardec'd just like anyone else. We can even leave a 'Freelancer' chat channel for Nova Fox.
Joining a corp should take an exponentially longer amount of time when done in rapid succession, having a 'cooldown' timer - fixing the corp/alliance hopping exploit. A group of determined hoppers will eventually find themselves dec'd and alone with no one to help them.
I could much better live with single characters being wardeccable than being forced into silly one-man corps.

Say, single characters could be wardecced, but if they are in a corp you had to wardecc the corp.

Another solution would be to remove the ability to leave a corporation while wardecced.

I guess there a dozens of better solutions than pressing one groups playstyle onto the masses.

I disagree with the idea of locking someone in a corp while in a wardec. Because of corp thieves, spies, traitors, scam corporations - people need to be bootable from a corporation at any given time for the sake of both corp and player. Also, large nullsec alliances like mine are often perma-wardec'd and turnover for various reasons is high; it's unfeasible to expect to wait 2-3 months to kill an awoxer or a spy.

A corp join cooldown timer on the other hand retains the current functionality for 99% of the players while preventing wardec evasion abuse. You might be able to buy some time by corp hopping, alliance jumping, etc, but someone who is truly determined to kill you can, after some effort, get a undodgeable wardec on you.

Anyways, I totally respect people's desires wanting to play an independent existence in EVE.
I just don't see why they need safety from wardecs to do it. I also don't see why large corporations need heavy wardec fines either.
I can see why a carebear alt who only wants to put his PVP main at risk to attack others would do it. Or a alliance hauling alt. Or a remote repair alt. So-on. And I don't really respect those desires.
With CCP's propsed new wardec system, highsec pvpers are penalized when they wardec large alliances. They're forbidden to wardec fat NPC corp carebearing alts. And any vets in a player-owned corp can still use the dec-shield rather then defend the PVE assets on their alts anyways. Who ends up eating up the brunt of the highsec PVPers aggression? Small startup corps full of new players who made the cardinal sin of wanting to socialize in an MMO. And I don't really find that fair or a good model to introduce new players with.
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-04-04 06:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashina Sito
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

To recap:
  • noob corps have 50% tax rate
  • noob corps are war-exempt and transfer-cooldown exempt
  • NPC corps would have varying tax rates and inversely-correlating wardec rates (between them and other NPC corps)
    • - it's easy to take a "vacation" from danger
    - players who take less risk earn less reward



    So.... I get screwed because you can't war dec me in high sec.

    The problem with this is I haven't spent any time in high sec (except to pass through it for a roam) in almost 2 years. You don't have to war dec me, I am in NPC 0.0 space. Get off your lazy butt and come out and fight somewhere where you don't need to deal with silly wardecs.

    Keeping old timers in NPC corps is good for the game. Often there are players that will help new pilots out. You can learn just about anything just by asking in an NPC corp, or you can in CAS at least.

    Stop trying to ruin a part of the game that is not causing an issue.
    Nicolo da'Vicenza
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #117 - 2012-04-04 07:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:

    How is being a freelancer different from 1 man corps, or is that the point?
    And the corp hopping suggestion seems like a good one. Doesn't handle alts in other corps, but then, what will?
    I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but really I think avoiding war should only be slightly less trivial than declaring it, which can be quite cheap.

    It's not much different. Freelancers can do everything a one-man corp can (except I guess access to a chat room equivalent to NPC corp chat) - it'll just be the default status of a player instead of the current NPC corp system. Set taxes at zero, let them anchor whatever they want, but they have to deal with wardecs like everyone else, ones that can't simply be shielded away for eternity.
    Serene Repose
    #118 - 2012-04-04 07:07:52 UTC
    You dictators of other's reality (while insisting on your own freedom) make me laff. Ha! Ha! Trust no one. Recruitment by invitation only. Everyone's a spy....oh, and...just go out there and join a corp. What's the hold up?

    Perkone roolz

    We must accommodate the idiocracy.
    Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
    INLAND EMPIRE Operations
    #119 - 2012-04-04 12:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
    Serene Repose wrote:
    You dictators of other's reality (while insisting on your own freedom) make me laff. Ha! Ha! Trust no one. Recruitment by invitation only. Everyone's a spy....oh, and...just go out there and join a corp. What's the hold up?

    Perkone roolz


    It is indeed a case of "Let me set you FREE while I strangle you" tactics. Typical operational method of dictators anyway.

    Besides, if the rest of the Industrialist Corps would band up in Alliances, that is a bit of discouragement right there.

    Price your 'dec-ability' out the window................

    ***
    Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
    INLAND EMPIRE Operations
    #120 - 2012-04-04 12:14:34 UTC
    Xorv wrote:

    It's a boost to PvP, yes EVE is a game almost entirely revolving around conflict and warfare, and hence PvP.



    IT IS A SANDBOX. GET OVER IT.

    ***