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New dev blog: Team Security - Now with 100% more Anti-RMT

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Hamster Too
Golden Fowl
#321 - 2012-04-04 00:29:29 UTC
Allataria wrote:

All I see here is I'm a pubbie who likes to mission customer the how I play. Try ratting in null sec for 6 hours a day and tell me its more fun and productive then missions. Oh that's right its not. CCP is failing to look at reasons and causes to hitting and is lazy going for the easy fix. Long time players have tried in vain to express the shortcomings of the game but it has fallen on deaf ears time and time again. Maybe when these bots get banned and loads of long timers stop subbing and the in game market falls apart and CCP starts to.lose.money they will see the larger picture.


Stop whining. If none of the multitude of ways to make ISK does not appeal to you then leave it to people enjoying those activities and use PLEX and/or GTC to fund your PvP habit. Spend those 6 hours in RL job, convert the earned money to ISK using one of the official, legal ways and have fun blowing up the ships.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#322 - 2012-04-04 00:31:02 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
I am 110% against BOTS and RMT farmers etc..... however I would REALLY like a serious answer to this question.

The reason BOTS exist is because a game mechanic exists where no human intelligence is required to complete the task. A BOT is capable of performing a game task much better then a human because this is actually a GAME DESIGN FLAW.

I hate to say it but botting exists because the activity of mining ore and ice is brainless, requiers no skills and can be automated.

Several people have made good suggestions on how to improve the game and make it more fun while making it harder for botting to occur, yet here we are banning accounts.You would not need to pay a security team a ton of REAL money if you actually use that money to fix the game mechanics.

Which begs the question, is it cheaper to pay a security team money to ban botters instead of fixing the actual game mechanics?


Yeah posting the same question that's already been answered in this thread isn't going to get you an answer you like better. I believe your assertion to be absolutely incorrect 100%.

By this standard, as I said earlier, every MMO ever was a boring noninteractive game and every one in the future will be as well.

I'm glad you got your message out though. Again. Stay Strong!

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
ISquishWorms
#323 - 2012-04-04 00:31:07 UTC
Been waiting a long time for this.

One of the most welcome threads ever great work CCP Sreegs you have my full support and I guess I have your love as I don't cheat (it ruins games and makes them pointless well in my eyes) even though I give you lot at CCP a hard time now and then. Cool

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#324 - 2012-04-04 00:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Z2ZzzzZ2Z
CCP Sreegs wrote:


We do not nor will we ever secure a loan. From our perspective if you make a loan you may as well be giving it away regardless of whether the guy's an rmter or not

If the guy's an RMTer you do run a slight risk of being flagged but it's a discussion we'd have to have when all the pieces came together.

In other words "loan" can mean a lot of things and I can't judge a case that hasn't happened as I've been saying. The case itself would be judged on its own merits and likely no two would be the same. You will NOT get a blanket answer from me on this question other than "We do not secure loans ever".


as i said. i don't care about the isk. again; risk you take. anybody that expects loans secured or reimbursed is .... well like that goon earlier. belong playing something simpler...like farmville...that caters to their particular mindset.

the slight risk sounds innocuous and i understand your hesitance to commit to anything but (maybe not here) this needs to be further elaborated on. slight risk? so if my buddy who played in my alliance for years goes out and buys a couple bill from a RMT and gets caught. but not before i borrow isk from him...am i in trouble? i still owe a buddy almost a bill from...i dunno a month ago when an account needed a gtc. this stuff happens all the time

"i need a ship but i'm broke
"here is isk go get a ship pay me back when you can [person you have known for a while]

ALL THE TIME

i do it when i have money and my friends do it when they do....help each out. that's what we do.

my point is that ( AGAIN!!!! ) ccp seems to have jumped the gun....gone off half cocked...prematurely....yeah anyways.. they didn't fully consider the ramifacations of their actions. even if its not something that i will get in trouble for, its something that i worry about. given ccp's track record of "our logs are useless and show about as much mormon pornography" just makes me even more uneasy.

i need more than what has been given. i consider myself a citizen of new eden (without going all rp). a member of the community. i have been since 2003. i expect to know the rules of the society in which i chose to participate. i know the laws in my own country better than most lawyers...or try to... best way to stay out of trouble is to know what will get you into it. so please. you don't seem to admit that there is anything even wrong with how this is handled. that is almost as troubling.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#325 - 2012-04-04 00:32:09 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

We do not nor will we ever secure a loan. From our perspective if you make a loan you may as well be giving it away regardless of whether the guy's an rmter or not.

If the guy's an RMTer you do run a slight risk of being flagged but it's a discussion we'd have to have when all the pieces came together.

In other words "loan" can mean a lot of things and I can't judge a case that hasn't happened as I've been saying. The case itself would be judged on its own merits and likely no two would be the same. You will NOT get a blanket answer from me on this question other than "We do not secure loans ever".


This already sounds a lot better than the "unwittingly loan isk to RMTer, get permabanned" thing everyone thought was going on.

I think I see what you meant now when you said "CCP doesn't secure your loans." People (ok, maybe I speak for myself here) aren't worried about losing the loaned isk, they're worried about "hey I loaned a guy isk, now all my accounts are perma'd." If you're accidentally flagged and you can explain the situation to a GM and get the ban reversed, that's not nearly as big of a deal. As you said, any capital we hand over to loan-seekers comes with the risk of not getting it back.


The GMs would hand the query over to us to run at this point and we do the inspection. We just don't directly handle petitions.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Hans Tria
Dark Matter Inc
#326 - 2012-04-04 00:35:15 UTC
I have reported a lot of suspected RMT, but have always done so by petition (the EULA, etc section).

Is it better to report via the security email address?

Does the way it is reported affect the possibility of earning plex for your trouble? I have gone through quite a bit of work to trace rings and corps engaged in RMT by digging through contract history and "following-the-money." I am also quite sure that many of these petitions have resulted in busts as certain of these characters and corps. no longer seem to exist :).
Lt Pizi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2012-04-04 00:36:46 UTC
CCP Sreegs do you watch the prices from RMTers ?

would be interresting if prices go up now

Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume!
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#328 - 2012-04-04 00:37:05 UTC
Sreegs, I've just read the whole thread.

Grats to you and your team.

OMG

Shocked

I don't know how much patience you must have to answer these questions over and over and overandoverandover...

I appreciate what your doing (as do many others).


Thanks to you all!

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#329 - 2012-04-04 00:40:26 UTC
I'm going to bed because it's almost 1am. I'll pick this up tomorrow and probably follow it for another day or so before I moonwalk off into the sunset.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#330 - 2012-04-04 00:52:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
What I'm getting from this is that CCP has little interest in preventing anyone from helping out a friend in need, but you do so at your own risk.

Speaking strictly from a players point of view, if you really aren't sure about your internet buddy, ask him point blank if he RMT's occasionally. If he actually is a good friend he'll probably admit it... and if you do it via chat you'd have a copy of the logs if he maintained that he did not.

Not that a chat log would necessarily end the matter, especially if you seem to make a habit out of loaning money to RMTers, but it's better than nothing.

Personally, if I give someone something it's usually a ship that they might need to earn ISK to get back on their feet... and I do mean give, I don't expect anything in return. Repayment can consist of passing that favor on when needed, and hopefully one day if I ever find myself in that situation Karma will look after me.

I'm not presuming to speak for anyone, just my personal point of view.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#331 - 2012-04-04 00:56:48 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I'm going to bed because it's almost 1am. I'll pick this up tomorrow and probably follow it for another day or so before I moonwalk off into the sunset.


i claim this emo quit
Xantor Bludberry
#332 - 2012-04-04 01:04:50 UTC
Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile
Is there some whine from RMT-botting forums?? I need moar drama and sweet botters tears!!! LolBearPirate
And I am so f****ng happy!!!! P
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#333 - 2012-04-04 01:20:38 UTC
I tend to really lose faith in humanity when the most forum active Dev in CCP catches so much **** from players.

I find it really hard to grasp why anyone would be made nervous by that blog. Have some faith that they are trying to catch bots, not harass players. If you are nervous based simply on reading that blog, your probably doing something shady.

Kudos to the security team, BTW.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#334 - 2012-04-04 01:29:18 UTC
Questions
Out of left field

Will some of the tools etc you are using be available for DUST514 and WOD?

Is there a guide you can point to on how the community can help you fight the good fight - a Link where I can tell a whiner to be a solution vs a symptom of bots.

can such player designed things like Farfmpukin
http://esb.multiplexgaming.com/index.php
Empire strikes back: a campaign to fight botting in Null sec

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Natasha Preston
Doomheim
#335 - 2012-04-04 01:34:43 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
I am 110% against BOTS and RMT farmers etc..... however I would REALLY like a serious answer to this question.

The reason BOTS exist is because a game mechanic exists where no human intelligence is required to complete the task. A BOT is capable of performing a game task much better then a human because this is actually a GAME DESIGN FLAW.

I hate to say it but botting exists because the activity of mining ore and ice is brainless, requiers no skills and can be automated.

Several people have made good suggestions on how to improve the game and make it more fun while making it harder for botting to occur, yet here we are banning accounts.You would not need to pay a security team a ton of REAL money if you actually use that money to fix the game mechanics.

Which begs the question, is it cheaper to pay a security team money to ban botters instead of fixing the actual game mechanics?


There are bots for every single aspect of the game, mission, trade, courier, etc. Besides, every single MMO out there has bots, so by your logic each one "is brainless, requiers no skills and can be automated".

Why do you bother playing computer games at all?
Lt Pizi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2012-04-04 01:35:36 UTC
http://nosygamer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/ccps-war-on-bots-tinyminer-tears-march.html

Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume!
Della Monk
Monastery of Drakes
#337 - 2012-04-04 01:42:21 UTC
Man I don't see what's so fussy about loans.
You loan isk to some deadbeat, he doesn't pay you back, you're out isk.
You loan isk to some rmter, he pays you back but it gets reversed, you're out the same amount of isk.
Unless I missed where they said they'd be handing out bans.
GM Nythanos
Game Master Retirement Home
#338 - 2012-04-04 01:42:59 UTC
Hi guys, just wanted to give a quick clarification for PLEX/ETC questions from before:

ETCs can be purchased from the official resellers at https://secure.eveonline.com/ETC however it's important to note that this is buying ETC, not PLEX. The difference is important.

While a 60 day ETC can be converted to PLEX, you are not buying two 30 Day Pilot License Extensions from those websites buy a 60 day EVE Time Code. It may seem nitpicky since the ETC can be converted to PLEX, but converting the ETC to PLEX is one option, not the only one, and until that conversion is made you have a code for 60 days of game time, not 2 PLEX sitting in your Redeemable Items. If another website is claiming they sell PLEX directly in an official capacity the claim would be incorrect. Buying PLEX directly from another site is not allowed.

To put it another way, there's no such thing as an "Official PLEX Reseller", only Official ETC resellers.


The information given earlier was not for the ETC/PLEX system as a whole, but for the PLEX-from-sites concerns like:
ThatSourDiesel wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP.



This was in the blog. Does this mean that other online retailers for PLEX, like Shattered Crystal and Battleclinic, are ILLEGAL sellers? I didn't think they were, but your post confuses me.

Can anyone clarify this for me please? Thanks!!




A short answer to questions about what is/isn't ok for ETC/PLEX acquisition would be:

Buying ETC from official resellers - Ok
Converting an ETC to 2 PLEX - Ok
Selling an ETC through the secure method - Ok
Buying PLEX through Account Management - Ok
Buying and Selling PLEX in game via the Market and Contracts - Ok
Buying PLEX from other Websites - Not Allowed

GM Nythanos | Senior Game Master
Meita Way
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#339 - 2012-04-04 01:51:44 UTC
Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev. I can imagine the tech your using to do this (I'm a computer scientist like a couple of others that have posted in the thread). Awesome.
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#340 - 2012-04-04 02:11:41 UTC
GM Nythanos, can you comment on my post #325. i feel like i was sorta left hanging. not trying to be difficult but my issues remain. please clarify this for the community.