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Patch change for GCC / Warp Prevention GM Clarification needed, Major Lowsec impact.

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Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-04-03 16:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ris Dnalor
GM Homonoia wrote:
Adian Grey wrote:

Attacking someine in Lowsec = GCC, No Concord


That is, technically, an exploit as you are not allowed to evade CONCORD, but it is an exploit that we took no action against (a sort of active tolerance, if you will), as it was a victim-less crime. However, with the coming patch this will hole be plugged.

NOTE: Just to make this absolutely and unambiguously clear; evading CONCORD has always been an exploit and always will be (grain of salt). We are NOT changing the rules here, only properly enforcing (through code) rules that have been there from the start.



Concord should attack folks ( & kill them ) when they commmit criminal activities in High sec. There is no such punishment for killing someone in low-sec.

What you're saying sounds like this to me: " Concord isn't smart enough to know WHERE you got your GCC, so they're going to come after you anyway, and if you avoid them it's an exploit, and you won't be able to avoid them at all after the next patch"

This drastically changes the game. You can talk about un-enforced rules all you want but that doesn't make it true ( I can say I've got golden wings and **** platinum bricks, but I assure you, it would be a lie ).

The low sec criminal that is just passing thru hi-sec after committing a crime in low-sec is not "avoiding the appropriate concord response" by quickly warping thru the system. There is no concord response for killing someone in low sec. Therefore no intended mechanics are being avoided. And there is no exploit. And this patch isn't "Fixing or enforcing" anything we currently have, it's adding something entirely new to the game and it sucks arse.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Adian Grey
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2012-04-03 16:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Adian Grey
The rules should state the following and it should be annouced since this seems to be a Fix It All at Once type patch without considering all affected activities. This is a major change a play style that has been around since day one:

Concord will respond to all capsuleers that committ a criminal act in Highsec and to all capsuleers who ENTER HIGHSEC WITH AN ACTIVE GCC.

This impacts events such as Hulkageddon where people would move into Highsec zones connected to lowsec with the intent of nuking miners. We were able to jump into highsec and attack. Once the target was destroyed we would wait for Concord and repeat. This is just one example.
FluffyDice
Kronos Research
#43 - 2012-04-03 16:41:27 UTC  |  Edited by: FluffyDice
Adian Grey wrote:
You can have a GCC and burn through 0.5 systems and back into another lowsec system without Concord getting you. They follow the same rules as the spawn timers for acts committed in Highsec, but the GCC itself was not obtained in highsec. This patch is specific to people in highsec getting a GCC that will likely have unintended consequences.

I dont remember the game ever working like this. I have gained GCC in the past for simply flying through InterBus sov with negative sec status. You land on the exit gate and are not allowed to leave regardless of if Concord is on grid or not.

They exprience you describe sound like how the navy operates. Not concord.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-04-03 16:41:51 UTC
this sucks.

I has all the eve inactivity
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#45 - 2012-04-03 16:42:03 UTC
Nebula Terron wrote:

People are talking about those high sec spots in low sec. You are -10 and fly through a few low sec systems 0.3->0.2->0.4-0.5(high sec spot->0.4->0.3.

Old system: You can jump into the 0.5 and with a fast ship, warp past Concord and jump back into the 0.4 low sec system
New system: you jump from low sec to high sec, you are Toast.

That's at least how I undestrood it.


Yeah but being unambiguous does not mean it's smart.

Imo CONCORD should punish aggressors "on site", i.e. if I attack (and eventually kill) somebody in 0.4 CONCORD shoots at my ship in there, because that's the punishment for killing in 0.4.

If I move to hi sec not doing any crime in there why should CONCORD send ships?

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Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#46 - 2012-04-03 16:43:50 UTC
Is this on Sisi now?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
#47 - 2012-04-03 16:44:13 UTC
Adian Grey wrote:
Since people cannot read...

Attacking someone in Highsec = GCC, Concord

Attacking someine in Lowsec = GCC, No Concord

What happens with the person with a GCC gained through actions outside of Highsec goes through Highsec is the base question. This also affects a number of mechanics currently used by pirates and bad people. Getting the GCC in Highsec is the exploit they are fixing. There is no exploit from getting a GCC in lowsec.


You're making a false assumption that there is a difference between attacking someone in lowsec and attacking someone in hisec. There isn't. In both cases, the penalty for attacking someone is that you get a GCC.

The difference between lowsec and hisec is that hisec has a CONCORD presence and lowsec doesn't.

One of the penalties for having a GCC is that CONCORD will engage you in hisec, so if you GCC in lowsec and jump into hisec, CONCORD should kill you dead.

Being able to jump into a hisec system with a GCC, warp to another gate and jump out without being killed by CONCORD counts as avoiding CONCORD and is an exploit that will be plugged by this new patch.

You may now commence crying bitter tears. :)
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-04-03 16:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ris Dnalor
Also, the rules only say avoiding concord death after killing someone is a violation of the rules.


It doesn't say crap about prolonging or delaying your death.


It doesn't say anything about warping off first, leading the cops away from the belt so your cohorts can come into the belt ( to do the same thing ) and not have concord sitting right on top of them before they start.

So this changes several things.

So the question is this: "Did you think of these possibilities and were these changes intentional with these repercussions in mind, or is it just a 'quick-fix' to one problem without consideration of other problems it might create for many of your players?"


also, is this a response to the burn jita campaign?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#49 - 2012-04-03 16:47:45 UTC
Yet another hasty patch that will probably result in bad things.

I still prefer my solution: Concord has the ability to determine where you are warping and their enhanced drives allow them to arrive there ahead of you. Rather than this gimmicky patch to prevent the boomerang, just make it so that Concord arrives where they WILL be rather than where they are/were. If they warp off just as the cops land on grid, have the cops immediately and instantly warp to their destination.

It *seems* like a relatively simple thing to do and will look a lot less like CCP cranking out a rushed patch to solve a problem that is hotly disputed among the player base.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Othran
Route One
#50 - 2012-04-03 16:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
GM Homonoia wrote:
Nebula Terron wrote:
Htrag wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Adian Grey wrote:

Attacking someine in Lowsec = GCC, No Concord


That is, technically, an exploit as you are not allowed to evade CONCORD, but it is an exploit that we took no action against (a sort of active tolerance, if you will), as it was a victim-less crime. However, with the coming patch this will hole be plugged.



Evading Concord in LOW SEC is technically an exploit? Durr?



There is no Concord in low sec


Ack, ok, I misquoted that. What I MEANT to do was to quote the part where you jump from Lowsec to Highsec with a GCC and then flee back to Low.

I now fixed the quote to show the proper sentence.



Then you need to do a good deal of re-writing wiki/etc.

The rule is AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN* that if you gank someone in high-sec then it is an exploit to evade concorde.

What you are now saying is that if you gank someone in low-sec (where there is no concorde) then at some point you risk the gateguns and hop through a high-sec system (where you committed no crime) will be an exploit. Or instadeath?

If that IS what you're saying then the carebears are winning the argument and we'll have a bland, safe game soon. Oh and you'll be out of a job because nobody in their right mind would play this ancient bugfest if that was the case.

Get a clue.

Fast.

*not in the early days until CCP realised Concorde could never cope with players and made it an exploit. Sounds like we're back in those days again.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#51 - 2012-04-03 16:48:28 UTC
Alex Tremayne wrote:

The difference between lowsec and hisec is that hisec has a CONCORD presence and lowsec doesn't.


Whose are those cannons that shoot at you there?

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Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
#52 - 2012-04-03 16:48:47 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:

What you're saying sounds like this to me: " Concord isn't smart enough to know WHERE you got your GCC, so they're going to come after you anyway, and if you avoid them it's an exploit, and you won't be able to avoid them at all after the next patch"


It's not that CONCORD isn't smart enough to know where you got your GCC, it's just that they don't care and they never have. The difference is that now you won't be able to avoid them. :)
Nebula Terron
Wolf's in Sheep's Clothing
#53 - 2012-04-03 16:52:14 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Alex Tremayne wrote:

The difference between lowsec and hisec is that hisec has a CONCORD presence and lowsec doesn't.


Whose are those cannons that shoot at you there?



They belog to the faction that holds that system. Also each station has it's own guns which belog to the faction the station belongs to. That has nothing to do with Concord.

Eve Online Forums: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-04-03 16:52:56 UTC
Alex Tremayne wrote:
Ris Dnalor wrote:

What you're saying sounds like this to me: " Concord isn't smart enough to know WHERE you got your GCC, so they're going to come after you anyway, and if you avoid them it's an exploit, and you won't be able to avoid them at all after the next patch"


It's not that CONCORD isn't smart enough to know where you got your GCC, it's just that they don't care and they never have. The difference is that now you won't be able to avoid them. :)


http://www.poam.net/legal/2009/what-constitutes-a-past-practice/


I realize it's not a legal issue, but when something is ok for 9 years, and it changes people will be upset.... in a video game, just as in real life.


And really, I'm not saying they need to change it or not-change-it. I'm simply saying they should be up-front, forthcoming, and honest in their actions. They should warn us, in detail, what the rules are, and why they decided to make the changes. This stealth crap isn't o.k., not when changing something that so fundamentally alters a long-standing game-mechanic that is fundamental to how many people play the game.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
#55 - 2012-04-03 16:53:04 UTC
Othran wrote:

The rule is AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN that if you gank someone in high-sec then it is an exploit to evade concorde.


Incorrect. The rule is and always has been, that avoiding CONCORD at all, is an exploit. The reasons have never mattered, you just thought they did. You were wrong. :)
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#56 - 2012-04-03 16:55:37 UTC
Also remember that both high and low sec are part of an empire and concord patrols only in high sec, thus you are still in empire space and concord is free to shoot you with GCC when you enter high sec.
Only difference is that you can't run from gate to gate with GCC in high sec.
Othran
Route One
#57 - 2012-04-03 16:56:41 UTC
Alex Tremayne wrote:
Othran wrote:

The rule is AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN that if you gank someone in high-sec then it is an exploit to evade concorde.


Incorrect. The rule is and always has been, that avoiding CONCORD at all, is an exploit. The reasons have never mattered, you just thought they did. You were wrong. :)


Nope. I'm not.

I was in Space Invaders (me, not Othran) and I know EXACTLY how the "evading concorde is an exploit came about".

You don't so hush child.
Nebula Terron
Wolf's in Sheep's Clothing
#58 - 2012-04-03 16:59:53 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nebula Terron wrote:

People are talking about those high sec spots in low sec. You are -10 and fly through a few low sec systems 0.3->0.2->0.4-0.5(high sec spot->0.4->0.3.

Old system: You can jump into the 0.5 and with a fast ship, warp past Concord and jump back into the 0.4 low sec system
New system: you jump from low sec to high sec, you are Toast.

That's at least how I undestrood it.


Yeah but being unambiguous does not mean it's smart.

Imo CONCORD should punish aggressors "on site", i.e. if I attack (and eventually kill) somebody in 0.4 CONCORD shoots at my ship in there, because that's the punishment for killing in 0.4.

If I move to hi sec not doing any crime in there why should CONCORD send ships?


First let me point out that I am not a supporter of the new system.

As it is now you have GCC you get attacked by Concord. What I want to know is, what if I am a -10 Pirate, and jump into high sec without GCC but my Criminal Timer that I earn simply for beeing a pirate.

With the old system you have been attacked by faction Navy, if you have not commited any crime in that high sec system other then entering it.

I want to know if still faction Navy comes after you if you jump into high sec as a -10 pirate without commiting any crimes recently, or if Concord now is responding to your entering of the system.

Eve Online Forums: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#59 - 2012-04-03 16:59:54 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Nebula Terron wrote:
Jason McCoy wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Adian Grey wrote:

Attacking someine in Lowsec = GCC, No Concord


That is, technically, an exploit as you are not allowed to evade CONCORD, but it is an exploit that we took no action against (a sort of active tolerance, if you will), as it was a victim-less crime. However, with the coming patch this will hole be plugged.

NOTE: Just to make this absolutely and unambiguously clear; evading CONCORD has always been an exploit and always will be (grain of salt). We are NOT changing the rules here, only properly enforcing (through code) rules that have been there from the start.

I dont understand this statement so low-sec will now have concord presence?

You attack someone in a .4 ~ .1 system and you are flying through a system you are evading concord? I thought low sec did not have concord?



People are talking about those high sec spots in low sec. You are -10 and fly through a few low sec systems 0.3->0.2->0.4-0.5(high sec spot->0.4->0.3.

Old system: You can jump into the 0.5 and with a fast ship, warp past Concord and jump back into the 0.4 low sec system
New system: you jump from low sec to high sec, you are Toast.

That's at least how I undestrood it.


Correct



Oh God. You broke it.


To the high grounds! A tidal wave of tears is coming!

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Morph Eis
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-04-03 17:05:28 UTC
In case its hard to work out. If you have GCC stay out of high sec.