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Escort Carrier
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Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-04-02 01:33:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Argaral
Caius Sivaris wrote:
Argaral wrote:

I wrote a long response, forums at it.

TL:DR versions, pocket carrier, fighter bombers for anti cap ship, 5 hi slots, no triage module. Less tank then carrier, more then t1 BS. Can't use acc gates but can use normal ones. Debatable on jump drive. Fighters useful vs BS's, use normal drones for cruisers/frigs. counter arguement, ishtar can do the same as dominix for nominally more cost. Can't fit dcu's to allow normal dps.

I think that covered most of what I had to say.

O and you need to use your fighters better as mine clear sanctums just fine and much faster then sentry 2's. PVP wise, don't let them chase, that's just beyond dumb for 100mil isk per 5 flight.


Giving them fighter bombers are in interesting idea, not obsoleting completely dreads for cap warfare if you only allow five and forbid drone control units. And yeah fighters are ok, but definitely not the selling point of carriers. My point was a five fighters ship isn't attractive. But then the skilling for fighter bombers would make them harder to get into than a carrier.


You raise a good point here. Allow them to use FB's, but not make them mandatory to train? Gives carebears incentive to train it, PVP pilots who are being whipped by their null sec over lords will do the long train, or even possibly, there would be less supers around as people could dock these. Free up their alts to play with rather then place hold
Admiral Lysander
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-04-02 17:31:08 UTC
Argaral wrote:
Caius Sivaris wrote:
Argaral wrote:

I wrote a long response, forums at it.

TL:DR versions, pocket carrier, fighter bombers for anti cap ship, 5 hi slots, no triage module. Less tank then carrier, more then t1 BS. Can't use acc gates but can use normal ones. Debatable on jump drive. Fighters useful vs BS's, use normal drones for cruisers/frigs. counter arguement, ishtar can do the same as dominix for nominally more cost. Can't fit dcu's to allow normal dps.

I think that covered most of what I had to say.

O and you need to use your fighters better as mine clear sanctums just fine and much faster then sentry 2's. PVP wise, don't let them chase, that's just beyond dumb for 100mil isk per 5 flight.


Giving them fighter bombers are in interesting idea, not obsoleting completely dreads for cap warfare if you only allow five and forbid drone control units. And yeah fighters are ok, but definitely not the selling point of carriers. My point was a five fighters ship isn't attractive. But then the skilling for fighter bombers would make them harder to get into than a carrier.


You raise a good point here. Allow them to use FB's, but not make them mandatory to train? Gives carebears incentive to train it, PVP pilots who are being whipped by their null sec over lords will do the long train, or even possibly, there would be less supers around as people could dock these. Free up their alts to play with rather then place hold


Plus it would mix up fleets a bit more, and dread pilots would have something eles to worry about.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#63 - 2012-04-03 05:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
OK my proposal (escort ships)
*New hull not a T2 (to expensive/unobtainable to the newer player)
*They stay off the other caps turf, no triage no drone links no logi bonus
*most of there HP in there races tank type, and almost no hull
*Can use gates
*bandwidth for 5 fighters or 10 drones.
*limited slot lay out and fittings.
*no jump drive

Hear is my try at the Caldari one-

Karura

Hi-4 (3missile)

Mid-5

Low-2

Rig-3/400 (large)



CPU-825

POW-9,750

Capacitor-18,500/recharge 15570s



Drone bandwidth-250
Drone bay-55,000 m3


Shield-55,500/recharge12500s
Armour- 9,500
Structure- 5,000


Targeting range- 88k
Scan Resolution-185 mm
Gravimetric Sensor Strength-64 points

Signature Radius- 745m

Corp hanger-5,000 m3
Maintenance bay-550,000 m3


Max Velocity- 75 m/sec
Inertia Modifier- 0.075
Mass-390,000,000 kg

Capacity 725 m3

Warp speed- 3 au



Roll bonus

75% reduction in duration and liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation

50% increase to shield booster repairer amount and capacitor use

200% bonus to Fighter control range

Can deploy 5 additional drones


Escort bonuses

5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level

10% bonus to fighter and drone tracking, optimal range max velocity per level

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#64 - 2012-04-03 05:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
So what dose this ship do? Well... it links sub-cap and cap fleets.

1) it can move/keep up with and support BS's and BC's providing fighters for you tackle and hulls for your fleet to switch/jump in to.

2) It can hold out long enough to cyno in back up with out having to commit to 10 min's of holding the torch.

3) its tank will do very well Vs. subcaps for 10 min's or so, but will fold under heavy fire from caps

4) a much quicker/cheaper alternative to carriers, on the down side you can't play ball suportless Vs. caps. On the up side its 10 drones/5 fighters at skill level 1 will boost any group right away.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
NeCaDa
EVE Syndicate Navy
#65 - 2012-04-03 08:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: NeCaDa
Ok Lysander,
Read your post earlier today and gave it a thought or two...
I always found the categories of ships with lonely SUBcategories in them to be... intriguing if you know what I mean. Hints of what's to come, maybe. With the scrambling of training tree to come, I guess making things easy to implement in the game is the key to ever seeing it happen. So don't implement four, just make one. So i came up with this

Idea Industrial Ship / Advanced Industrial Ship / Warzone Behemoth / ORE /

Architeuthi: (Giant Squid)
(think of Rorqual with lenght cut in half , less containers but some cut-open at one end.

*Easy to make up a story about whatever industrials needed firepower/defence during ''that war'... bla bla bla... materials too scarced to build carriers, but had drones produced in big quantities because of war... ...so they created the Behemoths.

*Can use gates but can't use acccel. gates... Roger that.
*Fitting service but no ship hangar.
*10 drones/5 fighters when optimal sounds good but no turrets/launcher
*Can fit / bonus to: Skirmish Warfare Link

+Narrows the gap between small industrials ships and capital ones.
+Opens the doors for heavy fleet combats for Industry oriented characters.
+Quicker access to fighters but not usable for HS afk missionning.
Araviel
Epic.
#66 - 2012-04-03 10:48:52 UTC
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
Not needed. The escort carrier was invented as a stopgap to stop U-boats raping convoys, during a war, when ships were hard to build due to time pressure.
EVE has not got that problem.
Carriers are ten a penny in null, and you don't tend to have convoys. And you can't exactly retrofit a freighter with a flat top and call it a carrier.

However, an EVE-ish measure would be another tier of BS-class hulls. Drone boats, basically, with fighters for tackling bigger ships, or just big drone bays for doing logistical stuff.



just toying whit ideas now without to much thought behind it, so dont take me to seriously,
but what if gave them this role in eve as well?
lets assume that EvE's equivalent to U-boats is recons and ew ships.
so maybe give them mothership immunity to EW, but whit glass cannon tanks?
that beast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2012-04-03 11:16:47 UTC
Due to the stacking quoting going on, mostly tl:dr

My initial thoughts would be that a CVE shouldn't have an attack role, or do anything to augment attacking capabilities, but should field unique, anti-fighter/standard drone drones that are short range operation only so that you get escorts around caps fielding effectively protective screens, but make it so that there is a chance for fighters to get a little bit of damage in, and that one escort could only effectively protect one or maybe two ships, so a limited number of drones field-able.

Don't give it more than a couple of frigates worth of ship-space max. As for turrets etc, I agree with no logi space, no remote repping, no triage, but perhaps drone disrupting fields, tying in with the role as anti-fighter.

Of course it would be difficult to implement and it would cause an entirely new kind of skills to be required.

On a side note, if we're going for silly ideas, cov. ops carrier! Can warp and jump cloaked! ;)
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-04-03 13:11:30 UTC
NeCaDa wrote:
Ok Lysander,
Read your post earlier today and gave it a thought or two...
I always found the categories of ships with lonely SUBcategories in them to be... intriguing if you know what I mean. Hints of what's to come, maybe. With the scrambling of training tree to come, I guess making things easy to implement in the game is the key to ever seeing it happen. So don't implement four, just make one. So i came up with this

Idea Industrial Ship / Advanced Industrial Ship / Warzone Behemoth / ORE /

Architeuthi: (Giant Squid)
(think of Rorqual with lenght cut in half , less containers but some cut-open at one end.

*Easy to make up a story about whatever industrials needed firepower/defence during ''that war'... bla bla bla... materials too scarced to build carriers, but had drones produced in big quantities because of war... ...so they created the Behemoths.

*Can use gates but can't use acccel. gates... Roger that.
*Fitting service but no ship hangar.
*10 drones/5 fighters when optimal sounds good but no turrets/launcher
*Can fit / bonus to: Skirmish Warfare Link

+Narrows the gap between small industrials ships and capital ones.
+Opens the doors for heavy fleet combats for Industry oriented characters.
+Quicker access to fighters but not usable for HS afk missionning.


Fantastic and well though out write up. My only critique is that it should be 5 drones max and only that, with the band width for fighters, you could field 10 sentries/heavy drones and this could encourage far too much afk missioning. With a standard 5 drones, it offers no better selections then say, a dominix but it is still viable with a considerable tank.
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2012-04-03 13:13:45 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
OK my proposal (escort ships)
*New hull not a T2 (to expensive/unobtainable to the newer player)
*They stay off the other caps turf, no triage no drone links no logi bonus
*most of there HP in there races tank type, and almost no hull
*Can use gates
*bandwidth for 5 fighters or 10 drones.
*limited slot lay out and fittings.
*no jump drive

Hear is my try at the Caldari one-

Karura

Hi-4 (3missile)

Mid-5

Low-2

Rig-3/400 (large)



CPU-825

POW-9,750

Capacitor-18,500/recharge 15570s



Drone bandwidth-250
Drone bay-55,000 m3


Shield-55,500/recharge12500s
Armour- 9,500
Structure- 5,000


Targeting range- 88k
Scan Resolution-185 mm
Gravimetric Sensor Strength-64 points

Signature Radius- 745m

Corp hanger-5,000 m3
Maintenance bay-550,000 m3


Max Velocity- 75 m/sec
Inertia Modifier- 0.075
Mass-390,000,000 kg

Capacity 725 m3

Warp speed- 3 au



Roll bonus

75% reduction in duration and liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation

50% increase to shield booster repairer amount and capacitor use

200% bonus to Fighter control range

Can deploy 5 additional drones


Escort bonuses

5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level

10% bonus to fighter and drone tracking, optimal range max velocity per level


Mate great work with the figures on this, over all looks solid. Bonus's are always going to be fun to play around with here but some of these look really good. Again, my only critique is the same as the above in regards to dps. Other then that, looks great and well thought out.
Admiral Lysander
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-04-03 13:59:55 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
OK my proposal (escort ships)
*New hull not a T2 (to expensive/unobtainable to the newer player)
*They stay off the other caps turf, no triage no drone links no logi bonus
*most of there HP in there races tank type, and almost no hull
*Can use gates
*bandwidth for 5 fighters or 10 drones.
*limited slot lay out and fittings.
*no jump drive

Hear is my try at the Caldari one-

Karura

Hi-4 (3missile)

Mid-5

Low-2

Rig-3/400 (large)



CPU-825

POW-9,750

Capacitor-18,500/recharge 15570s



Drone bandwidth-250
Drone bay-55,000 m3


Shield-55,500/recharge12500s
Armour- 9,500
Structure- 5,000


Targeting range- 88k
Scan Resolution-185 mm
Gravimetric Sensor Strength-64 points

Signature Radius- 745m

Corp hanger-5,000 m3
Maintenance bay-550,000 m3


Max Velocity- 75 m/sec
Inertia Modifier- 0.075
Mass-390,000,000 kg

Capacity 725 m3

Warp speed- 3 au



Roll bonus

75% reduction in duration and liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation

50% increase to shield booster repairer amount and capacitor use

200% bonus to Fighter control range

Can deploy 5 additional drones


Escort bonuses

5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level

10% bonus to fighter and drone tracking, optimal range max velocity per level



DOOD you are a sir lol

nice one everyone for all the epic idea for how we can utilize sutch a thing
Chase The Dragon
Doomheim
#71 - 2012-04-03 16:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Chase The Dragon
What's the point of only 5 fighters? A Dominix or Ishtar can do pretty much the same dmg with 5 heavies/sentries. 10 fighters do less dps than quite a few BS (which can do more dmg to < BS size targets).

5 Fighter Bombers then yes, it's creating something different.
NeCaDa
EVE Syndicate Navy
#72 - 2012-04-03 18:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: NeCaDa
NeCaDa wrote:

Idea Industrial Ship / Advanced Industrial Ship / Warzone Behemoth / ORE /

Architeuthi: (Giant Squid)
(think of Rorqual with lenght cut in half , less containers but some cut-open at one end.




An image is worth a thousand words... so...

Sub-Cap ORE Carrier

***Print Screen and MS Paint were harmed during the making of this post.

ChaseTheDragon wrote:

(...) 5 Fighter Bombers then yes, it's creating something different.


Yes for bombers... of course.

*And story-wise... maybe add something about Customs Office Deployment/Defence
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-04-03 22:31:05 UTC
Chase The Dragon wrote:
What's the point of only 5 fighters? A Dominix or Ishtar can do pretty much the same dmg with 5 heavies/sentries. 10 fighters do less dps than quite a few BS (which can do more dmg to < BS size targets).

5 Fighter Bombers then yes, it's creating something different.


I guess the argument comes down to the fact that if you up the drone allowance to 10, you obsolete the dominix/rattlesnake where as we're trying to create a specialized "cheap" carrier that is capable of pulling some weight in both pve and pvp. 5 Fighters offer some increased DPS vs BS sized targets while still being able to field smaller drones for small targets. 10 sentries/heavies would be overly too powerful. While running level V's it would be great, you're offering too little risk for too much potential reward.

Also, if they did go with fighter bombers, have more then 5 would severly leave Super caps at a disadvantage in cost vs reward. They field on average, what 20 fighter bombers? Having something with a hull worth less then a billion isk compared to a 20 billion isk hull would be too much of a skew
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#74 - 2012-04-04 02:22:08 UTC
Let me criticise Rel's Bloodclaw's concept

You have a ship with 2 lowslots. That is useless. one goes for a DCU, for resists, and the other goes for what, a CPR

You have a base 55K shield, with 5% per level resists, and 5 midslots. 55,000 shield...WHAT THE?!!?!. With a 20% cap use bonus, and 3 capacitor solidifier rigs, and 2 invuls, 1 EM ward, a T2 XL booster and boost amplifier, you are basically capstable 750DPS tank on top of a likely 220K EHP buffer, when you consider that this is going to have 55K shield hp and straight 75 resists. If you imp the shield booster, you are pushing 1200DPS tank. Add in a Vulture and crystals, you'd be topping 2,000DPS tank and a 350K EHP shield buffer.

Then you've given your drones an OMG win set of attributes. 50% more optimal, tracking and max velocity? You'll be farming frig and cruiser killmails like its going out of style, no need to fit neuts to cap out ceptors, just launch Warriors which deal their DPS perfectly and can chase down dramiels.

Oh, and you don'tneed to fit ECCM because its got a sensor strength badass enough to shrug off Falcons. Not that they are a problem, assign your 10 sentries with uber tracking and swat them from the sky

Nor do you need to fear resolution dampening like most fighters, because you've given it a 185mm scan res - nearly double that of BS's!

Plus, since you've only really used a third of the CPU and sod all powergrid, you can fit remote repairers in the highs, and be an unjammable, un-neutable, unkillable, uber-tanking 10 x T2 sentry drone 600DPS anti-tackle cyno-enabled death machine. Which can shunt in and out of wormholes like an Orca.

Seriously, this is your idea of a balanced ship? True, it's not quite a carrier (only because you chopped its stats by a third) but it has a list of ship bonuses as long as your arm, some of which stack like all get-out and others which would turn the drones into a hideous win-button and obsolete everything below a BS.

Bzzzt. Not convinced

As for the people jaw-jawing about "oh, TF, you're so wrong, no one would waste their ISK getting 10 of these to assign fighters in hisec station games" - where have you people been living the past few years? Derelik? If any of you got out of noobcorps and stopped corp-hopping at the first whiff of a dec, you'd realise that the professional griefer/mercs in hisec deploy a half dozen neutral logi alts - minimum - in 250M ISK Logi ships to win at EVE

There is nothing - nothing - what will stop them retraining their alts so they can have 10 escort carriers fluffin about at a POS in hisec, or a safespot with half a dozen logi alts and an off-grid booster, to break the supposed "logic" you are using to say "nuh uh, my carebear senses tell me this won't get abused!

Sorry, Mr Fluffles, it will get abused. It'll get fritzl'd.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#75 - 2012-04-04 04:34:07 UTC
Actually, let me go on.

Without a triage module and no defined logistical ability, your Escort Carrier, as proposed above, would be perfect for dropping as cyno bricks (possibly Rel'ks idea), backed up by triage carriers.

You'd be able to fit it with spastically huge active tanks (think twin XL shield boosters, boost amps; 3000DPS) then prop with incoming energy reps from full-sized carriers. Because you can't triage an escort carrier, this is the only role you are left with, but guess what, its no disadvantage! Being unable to triage means you are always open for getting reps from full-sized capitals or logis - and your buffer is so huge you can't easily be alpha'ed by anything smaller than a DD.

You basically become an anti-subcap support ship, as intended, except that you perform this better than anything else. You can fit neuts, smartbombs, drone nav computers (5km/s webber drones, wheee!), assign fighters, utterly destroy enemy tackle, support, EWAR, everything.

Why, you have convinced me! I would pay 500M for one of these bad boys!

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2012-04-04 04:44:38 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Actually, let me go on.

Without a triage module and no defined logistical ability, your Escort Carrier, as proposed above, would be perfect for dropping as cyno bricks (possibly Rel'ks idea), backed up by triage carriers.

You'd be able to fit it with spastically huge active tanks (think twin XL shield boosters, boost amps; 3000DPS) then prop with incoming energy reps from full-sized carriers. Because you can't triage an escort carrier, this is the only role you are left with, but guess what, its no disadvantage! Being unable to triage means you are always open for getting reps from full-sized capitals or logis - and your buffer is so huge you can't easily be alpha'ed by anything smaller than a DD.

You basically become an anti-subcap support ship, as intended, except that you perform this better than anything else. You can fit neuts, smartbombs, drone nav computers (5km/s webber drones, wheee!), assign fighters, utterly destroy enemy tackle, support, EWAR, everything.

Why, you have convinced me! I would pay 500M for one of these bad boys!


Suddenly nano gangs aren't flavour of the month ey.

So the question is, since the above posts aren't running their numbers right trink, what should we aim for? Drone upgrades are one thing, but a 3000dps tank is ludicrous, it should be 2000 max, and we're talking with faction gear. Imo, just copy the rattlesnake for skill bonus's except for fighters/fighter bombers. Role bonus to fighter range as well. The question is, how the **** do we not over power it? a neut, a smartbomb are standard fits for a carrier, deduct a high slot for triage as it's not needed. Without DCU's, the only options left are RR's., range extenders(not needed due to bonus's) and cap transfers. So what do we put there?
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#77 - 2012-04-04 04:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
@Trinkets friend

The numbers in tank are just a rough out-line. The point what i was striving for was some thing that can tank, but cant just rely on its massive amount of "other" HP. one its tank brakes its toast kinda thing.

In hindsight the sensor str could and should be lower. But with out the scan rez it will not be able to assigned/attack with its drones quick enough to help the smaller ships in fleet.

it dose only have the power grid of a scorpion

YOU CAN NOT ASSIGN FIGHTERS IN HI-SEC OR A 0.4

With the speed and aline time they have you can't give the shield tank one to meany lows or they will start to get faster alines than a BS(that was my concern)

AWW crap forgot about sentries.......well I'll have to think about that.

Cap should go down buy 6k but remeber its cap use fro reps is +50%

@ teh bombers thing

Cant do bombers.....read how they use bandwith its kinda weird

And why not save that fro a T2?

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2012-04-04 04:59:42 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:

@ teh bombers thing

Cant do bombers.....read how they use bandwith its kinda weird

And why not save that fro a T2?


I'll be the first to admit im fuzzy on FB's. You may have to elaborate further on this for me. In regards to a tech 2, I believe it's gonna be a long wait as theres several other ships that are ahead of our idea.

The only reason I suggest FB's is that it gives them a dedicated anti super role, while allowing carebears new toys in the field. Keeps both sides happy. Otherwise we just have an OP dominix x 4
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#79 - 2012-04-04 05:08:38 UTC
@Araral
for the caps and super caps the cyno is for your deturent/attack. fighter bombers use 1200 bandwith each and they coast alot to use in both skills and isk, kinda want the ship to be below a carrier/super carrier in most ways.


@Chase The Dragon
The point of fighters is they help out intie's and other small tackle with both bumps to cloak/DPS/and they chase stuff like recons and bombers.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2012-04-04 05:19:18 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
@Araral
for the caps and super caps the cyno is for your deturent/attack. fighter bombers use 1200 bandwith each and they coast alot to use in both skills and isk, kinda want the ship to be below a carrier/super carrier in most ways.




Well huge band width isn't a problem if you restrict it to 5 drones, bandwidth can be infinite but if it's restricted to 5 deploy able drones(no DCU's/skill increase like carriers) then it's balanced. Unfortunately a cyno is no deterrent, by your logic, the fact LAWN has a few capitals should scare PL enough into not dropping 5 or so nyx's on top of me. Something is needed to directly combat supers that doesn't call for a nerf of Supers. Bombers had been suggested in this capacity as an upgrade bu so far that has been shot down.

If you could drop 4 pocket carriers down, that would certainly give them a fighting chance vs a super and work a a partial deterrent