Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Hey CCP, great looking fanfest, congrats. Excited for what is coming.

However, I am seeking clarification and further discussion regarding two of the new modules that were introduced at FanFest.

Here is the slide:
http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg875/scaled.php?tn=0&server=875&filename=4wbsl.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640


Here are the points I'd like clarification on:

• Armor Resistance Shifting Hardener - A module that give resistance bonus, where the resistance bonus changes over time based on incoming damage
• Fueled Shield Booster - A shield booster where you can choose to either use capacitor or a charge (from cargo hold) to fuel

I sense the logic that these two module types are designed to offer. They are both different and yet, somehow balance each other out. But they only really achieve this truly - in a solo engagement and to a lesser degree in a small gang.

The problem arises, when you scale the the fleet sizes. The armor resistance shifting hardener is potentially far more valuable in a fleet of 30-1000+ armor ships. Imagine for example, how this would effect the use of a Drake blob, tied to kinetic damage against an armor fleet using the shifting hardener? The armor fleet would tank the heck out of them.

Already, in these sort of fleet sizes, backed by guardians and archons, you arguably have the best logistics cruiser and triage carrier in the game, but now you end up handing armor a huge advantage in fleet combat. Because in shield fleets of this size - boosters aren't fit - ever. Instead it's all about resistances and buffer to get the best from the scimitars and basilisks. We will be left in a situation where shield fleet fits have to omni tank, and armor can just fit more buffer and adapt their resistances to be unbreakable.

The other issue facing most Caldari ships, is that we already need a cap booster to power an active tank and hybrid guns. Heck, shield boosters are so cap heavy, even missile boats need to fit a cap booster (you honestly don't think a medium shield booster is good enough on an active Drake fit right?

So, the question is, where is the room in the cargo hold for the extra fuel we're now supposed to carry? It is already filled with missiles, hybrid charges and cap boosters. And for tight fits like this, the idea the idea we can burn extra cap to get some shield is not really an option, as no cap = death. You're talking about a tank type that has no passive adaptive module as it is, unlike Armor with it's EANM, so shield tanks are almost always active hardeners with invulnerability modules, without which the tanks fail fast.

Personally, I feel that if something like a shifting hardener is introduced - you need to do it for both armor and shield types.

In addition, offer a new, third module, for small gang armor pilots, where they can get some sort of tank benefit akin to the shield booster, that also uses 'fuel'. Hows about a Nanite Injector module for example?

And for Caldari hybrid ships, you'd need to give them a bit more capacitor to even contemplate fitting something that either uses fuel or any capacitor left.

Either way, more details on these modules and the thinking behind them, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks CCP, and keep up the good work.

Well your first point is a little unclear, do you mean a drake blob would not attempt to fight armor? or do you mean Drakes fitting armor? Neither of which seems like a great game change. We'll just end up with three races tanking armor in fleets and the end of shields in anything above a 7 man gang.

As for your second point, that is complete supposition, given the lack of details so far, there is no mention that cap boosters would be used in this way, and the point remains, a Ferox eats cap with an active tank, the number aren't great even with a large shield booster - only about 300 omni, and we need 800 sized cap boosters to be long term cap stable.

Drakes are supposed to be losing their Kinetic damage boost in favor of a ROF boost anyway.

This would be far more effective in PvE tanks.

Well one can only hope that other Caldari missile boats get an ROF boost and it isn't just the Drake. I would like to see if be applied to the Cerberus as well for example. But other races are tied to a damage type, so if it remains Kinetic so be it, I'm not interested in a 'win' button for any race.

You may well be right it might be a PvE thing, without more details it is hard to make a good judgement. But regardless I can see it being used in PvP fits, we have some very creative players in EvE when it comes to exploiting fits and mechanics.

For me, the more interesting option, is to give both tank types similar modules, and see what people do with them, rather than restricting either type of the new modules to one tank type or another.

Good post PDH, however not everyone wants to fly every race in the game and it takes many months for a new pilot to be half decent in one race alone and only then at say, medium sized weapons. Not all shield ships are known for speed and damage, most Caldari ships are the same speed, if not slower, than Amarr - with plating in. Granted they have better agility, but equally they have far larger signatures. In a fleet fit, Caldari have to forgo DPS in the low slots, for ECCM and a Damage Control, given the mid slots are made up of tank, propulsion and for blaster fits - Cap Boosters.

I appreciate that eve should remain varied, my worry is that you give armor a clear advantage in a fleet situation, you will see everyone just focus on armor for fleets. That is also how EvE works - everyone picks the ships that win the most.

I would like to see both types of modules for both types of tank types, to continue that variety, and avoid stratification.

Here is an example: An Abaddon could still fit two EANM's, 1600 plate, damage control and a new shift resistance module and have both great omni resists as standard, buffer and the new ability to focus it's resists if it comes across a specific fleet type. It still has free slots for DPS free and mids for tracking computers, target painters and other e-war etc.

While it may be true the Drake might be getting ROF instead of KN damage, will this be the case for all Caldari ships? From the Hawk, all the way through to the Phoenix - they all have Kinetic bonuses for DPS.

Even so, I grant you, a Caldari fleet with missiles in could mix up the DPS types regardless, thus nullifying the advantage of any shift resistance modules, but you still have the not inconsiderable issue with missiles, with their time to reach a target - a distinct disadvantage in smaller fleet PvP where logistics are involved.

Minmitar would also feel a fair bit hacked off, with most of their damage being explosive, it would put them at a real disadvantage against armor fleets.

So... my concern is, you end up with every one rerolling Amarr / Gallente, being forced to do so, just to remain competitive in a fleet fight. As a guy trying to show what Caldari can do, naturally, I'd feel a tad disappointed if that ended up being the case.

But right now, we could be debating over nothing, which is why I'd like some clarification, but based on what has been announced, I am concerned that armor fleets are about to get something shields can't make use of in a fleet and can only truly be countered, by also deploying an armor fleet.

Agreed on that point on alpha damage. This is very much apparent in terms of high-sec suicide ganks in which Alpha damage reigns supreme over DPS. Career gankers always scan their targets for the purpose of figuring out the weakest damage resistance so that they can exploit it. Therefore the target's adaptive armor will not shift resistance enough in time to prevent itself from exploding at the hands of a ganker. This is why standard resistance mods that don't adapt will still remain more favorable to career gank survivors.

EDIT:

Actually, I see an additional flaw in the use of adaptive armor mods.

Let's say a Hulk pilot fits an adaptive armor mod onto his ship and mines to his heart's content. A scout scans the Hulk and reports which resist is strongest and weakest. A fleet of gankers arrive and start shooting the Hulk. But instead of shooting for the weakest resist, they aim for the strongest resist that also includes the resist from the shield. All but one or two of the gankers lose their ships to Concord because one or two are fitted to deal damage towards the weakest fit and have not yet fired. Because so much resist has been shifted towards the strongest resist that the weakest resist is made even weaker. Just weak enough for the one or two remaining gankers to finish the job even with Concord still present on the field.

But this brings more questions. Will Damage Control mods be allowed to be fitted with an adaptive armor mod? Will the adaptive armor mod shift the natural resist of the ship or will it add its own resist and shift those instead?

If you want a CCP response post in the general discussion forum, devs tend not to read/post in here

I would like to point out (no trolling intended) that we already have a shield booster for armor: Armor Repairer

But I agree: A fueled version would be nice

Also, can your please type tour link? Everytime I try using a link on these forums when using my tablet or smartphone, it gives me a WE WERE GANKED page.

Will all shield boosters receive the ability to use fuel? My ship has an unstable cap because of the Shield Booster.

Merging modules only causes trouble, so even though it would be useful it might not be a good idea to combine Shield Boosters and Shield Rechargers, or to combine Cap Boosters and Cap Rechargers.