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Make Naga a Missile boat.
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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-02-06 18:08:32 UTC
WHY did someone revive this long dead horse? There was another thread about this recently as well. On the test server before Crucible was released there were people using Naga's to flat out obliterate Battleships using torps. There are even a few vids on YouTube of this. It was far too overpowered and had to be neutered. I would love a cruise Naga though...but the Naga is fine as is with Rails honestly.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-02-07 03:41:21 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
WHY did someone revive this long dead horse? There was another thread about this recently as well. On the test server before Crucible was released there were people using Naga's to flat out obliterate Battleships using torps. There are even a few vids on YouTube of this. It was far too overpowered and had to be neutered. I would love a cruise Naga though...but the Naga is fine as is with Rails honestly.


Basically this.

As it is, the Naga is a fantastic ship both in the blaster and railgun role and I don't think CCP are every going to change that now. It even out-blasters the Talos (but Talos gets drones so that's ok Big smile )

Get your corpies to train turret based skills and out of their ratting drakes.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#63 - 2012-02-08 11:22:21 UTC
Hellz Hitman wrote:
Caldari are missile based. Not Hybrid based. If I wanted a hybrid boat I'd go for the Talos, which by the way is almost exactly the same. Why release a laser ship, a projectile boat, and then 2 hybrid boats. How is that even balanced. That basically gives all missile users the finger, a caldari player have to skill up in Hybrid turrets just to use it. ((To clarify, I already have all the skills for large hybrid but alot of my corpies don't. They teched up to Ravens and scorps, so they cant use a ship of their own race because they don't have the weapons for it.))

Simply put, we don't need a hybrid ship, there were no missile ships released in this patch and there should have been. It's not fair for caldari players that you release two gallente ships in one patch.

-Hellz


No
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-02-08 11:55:49 UTC
Quote:
Caldari are missile based. Not Hybrid based.


Are they really?

Merlin has hybrid bonuses
Raptor has hybrid bonuses
Harpy has hybrid bonuses
Cormorant has hybrid bonuses
Moa has hybrid bonuses
Eagle has hybrid bonuses
Ferox has hybrid bonuses
Rokh has hybrid bonuses

So they plainly are at least partly hybrid based.
Davader
Space Cleaners
The Gorgon Empire
#65 - 2012-02-08 14:43:45 UTC
Caldari have Drake and Tengu with Nighthawk and Cerberus. Why to have one more?

Naga should stay hybrid-based.
Jalmari Huitsikko
Avanto
Hole Control
#66 - 2012-02-08 14:52:12 UTC
a) missiles on naga were totally bad in every way
b) caldari also use hybrids stfu
c) be happy naga uses hybrids because missile naga sucked ass
d) it's in line with other tier 3 caldari ships
e) missiles on naga are bad mkay?
Eva Yang
Oblivion Protocol
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#67 - 2012-03-25 19:30:53 UTC
So this is Primarily a bump post, but I still argue that a cruise Naga would be great. and to be honest over half of these arguments are lacking any reasoning behind them... its all ppl saying missiles suck. and that's it. come on ppl come up with some real content... be it you hate missiles or not... and caldari are missile based... :)
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-03-25 22:18:21 UTC
No, it would be as bad as your post.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-03-26 17:35:04 UTC
Jesus christ are people still whining about this?

I'll put it in simple words for a simple OP:
A missile Naga would be absolutely worthless. It needs guns to compete with the other tier 3s, and to do its job well.

Get over it.
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-03-27 06:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyran Scorpi
Hybrid bonuses

Merlin
Raptor
Harpy
Cormorant
Moa
Eagle
Falcon
Tengu
Ferox
Vulture
Rokh

Missile bonuses

Condo
Hero
Kestre
Crow
Manticore
Hawk
Flycatcher
Caracle
Cerberus
Onyx
Rook
Tengu
Drake
Nighthawk
Raven
Golem
Widow

3 hybrid frigate < 6 missile frigate
1 hybrid destroyer = 1 missile destroyer
4 hybrid cruiser < 5 missile cruiser
2 hybrid battlecruiser = 2 missile battlecruiser
1 hybrid battleship < 3 missile battleship

This is the division of ship types before you take the naga into account. The number of hybrid ships is less than or equal to the number of caldari missile boats for a given hull size, therefore, the new battlecruiser needs to be a missile boat, or at least have the capability to utilize both weapon types like the tengu.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#71 - 2012-03-27 08:51:29 UTC
It was a missile platform originally, but since the theme was "cheap'ish sniper" the only alternative was cruise which are quite frankly horrid hence the change to guns.

At any rate, you should train guns regardless as most of the skills cover all systems and they are pretty much superior to missiles in the vast majority of cases.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-03-27 11:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Tyran Scorpi wrote:
A load of complete crap.


Nice job just listing off arbitrary bonuses rather than looking at what the ships are actually meant to do.
Tier 3 BCs are meant for mid-long ranges, and specifically sniping. To do this, they need guns. Caldari have hybrids as their alternative weapon system, and the Naga is a great railgun platform - so this works quite nicely.

A missile Naga on the other hand is ******* worthless, and if you tried to bring one along to my tier 3 gang I'd take a good amount of time to laugh at you before kicking you out of the fleet and telling you to fit up a proper ship.

various idiots wrote:
BUT THERE'S ALREADY A HYBRID TIER 3 OMFGWTFDERP

Yes, yes there is, and it works completely differently to the Naga despite the shared weapon systems.
The Naga has a niché that the Talos cannot fill anywhere near as effectively. Notice how it does this without using missiles, and now punch yourself in the face and learn to play.

Tyran's stupid little list wrote:
herp derp derp herp derp

And just because I can, I'm going to point out a few flaws in your list of missile boats.


Condor
Heron - is a probing ship, the fact it has a missile bonus is purely incidental.
Kestrel
Crow
Manticore - is a stealth bomber. All the stealth bombers have missiles, regardless of race. I don't see many threads from Minmatar whining about how their Hounds can't fit artillery, do you?
Hawk
Flycatcher - is a dictor, and the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role.
Caracal
Cerberus
Onyx - is a hictor, and the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role.
Rook
Tengu - nice to see you listed this under both categories, missing the irony that if the Naga were made into dual missiles/hybrids, the missile variant would be worthless much like the hybrid Tengu is.
Drake
Nighthawk
Raven
Golem
Widow - is an ECM/jump bridge monkey, the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role.

Naga - the fact it's hybrid bonused means it can perform its role on par with the other tier 3s.

Quote:
It was a missile platform originally, but since the theme was "cheap'ish sniper" the only alternative was cruise which are quite frankly horrid hence the change to guns.

Yeah, once cruises and long range missiles in general get their fix, the idea of a missile Naga might be worth considering, but I don't see the point personally.
Also IIRC, the first iteration of the Naga was dual-bonused to hybrids and missiles, but the missile variant sucked balls.
ganks theman
Universal Exos
#73 - 2012-03-27 22:58:26 UTC
my words missiles do not miss and do not need to level 3ters of missiles for 2t missiles bs

ganks theman =  gangster man :P
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-03-27 23:22:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyran Scorpi
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
stuff


Yes, I realize that the missile version would be useless in a gang/fleet, unless you were shooting structures with Torps... I would like to have both options available.

Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

Heron - is a probing ship, the fact it has a missile bonus is purely incidental.
Manticore - is a stealth bomber. All the stealth bombers have missiles, regardless of race. I don't see many threads from Minmatar whining about how their Hounds can't fit artillery, do you?
Flycatcher - is a dictor, and the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role.
Onyx - is a hictor, and the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role.
Tengu - nice to see you listed this under both categories, missing the irony that if the Naga were made into dual missiles/hybrids, the missile variant would be worthless much like the hybrid Tengu is.
Widow - is an ECM/jump bridge monkey, the fact it's missile bonused makes no difference whatsoever to its role.


Heron/manticore - I agree, I only included them to avoid the omg you missed something posts.
Flycatcher/Onyx - They do happen to be dictors, but I also believe that they need to fix dictors so they can be used with the weapon systems they have bonuses for.
Tengu - Yep, they need to fix the hybrid tengu as well.
Widow - Yep, they need to fix black ops too.

Even if you remove the heron, manticore, and widow, my previous analysis stands unchanged.

EDIT: I could also point out that the falcon and vulture only happen to have hybrid bonuses as well, one is an ECM boat, the other a fleet boosting ship. I included them anyway.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#75 - 2012-03-28 06:31:07 UTC
Hellz Hitman wrote:
Caldari are missile based.


There are more Caldari turret bonused ships than there are Gallente drone bonused ships.

In short: there's more to Caldari than farming L4 missions with Tengus. The Naga is currently a popular and useful PvP ship. With missiles it would be almost useless.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-03-28 11:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
Flycatcher/Onyx - They do happen to be dictors, but I also believe that they need to fix dictors so they can be used with the weapon systems they have bonuses for.

... Umm, what? Damage dealing isn't their job. They have only token weapon systems as they do just fine at bubbling/infinipointing. If they were doing decent DPS, they'd have to have compromised somewhere on the "interdictor" part of their description.

Quote:
Even if you remove the heron, manticore, and widow, my previous analysis stands unchanged.

What analysis? You threw up a list of ships that are hybrid bonused vs those that have missiles, and then declared that the Naga should be missile bonused based on that rather than, oh let me think here... ah yeah, being a good ship.

Quote:
Yes, I realize that the missile version would be useless in a gang/fleet, unless you were shooting structures with Torps... I would like to have both options available.

You have no shortage of structure bashers available. Including the blaster/rail Naga, in fact.
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-03-28 21:11:19 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

... Umm, what? Damage dealing isn't their job. They have only token weapon systems as they do just fine at bubbling/infinipointing. If they were doing decent DPS, they'd have to have compromised somewhere on the "interdictor" part of their description.


The only reason you dont see caldari dictors fitting missiles is due to using up all their powergrid on tank modules. I want to be able to fit the weapons systems those ships have bonuses for, while still being able to perform the role adequately. DPS doesnt even come into it, I dont really care about the DPS, I just want to be able to fit the weapons in the first place.

Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

You have no shortage of structure bashers available. Including the blaster/rail Naga, in fact.


I am not arguing that, all I am saying is that I want to have the option of using torps on the naga.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-03-28 21:28:10 UTC
Wow this thread still going?

I think it's safe to assume that the Naga won't be getting missiles anytime soon.

Personally I think the Naga is a kickass ship with blasters.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#79 - 2012-03-28 22:50:06 UTC
Quote:
The only reason you dont see caldari dictors fitting missiles is due to using up all their powergrid on tank modules. I want to be able to fit the weapons systems those ships have bonuses for, while still being able to perform the role adequately. DPS doesnt even come into it, I dont really care about the DPS, I just want to be able to fit the weapons in the first place.


If it's an Onyx - it's really not that hard to fit. If it's a Flycatcher - fitting weapons to it is a waste of money anyway.

Quote:
I am not arguing that, all I am saying is that I want to have the option of using torps on the naga.

So basically, you want to open up a potential balance nightmare and take up dev time, because you want a different graphic while shooting a structure.
Yeah, that's an awesome justification.
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-03-29 00:36:28 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

Flycatcher - fitting weapons to it is a waste of money anyway.


That is a matter of opinion.

Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

Yeah, that's an awesome justification.


*shrug*
I was bored when I joined this thread, I want one seems as good a justification as any.