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Is This A Viable Playstyle?
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-03-27 12:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Caellan Traverse wrote:
Is it a clear advantage to pilot an Iteron V over a Bestower? Or is that only from a min/maxing perspective? I'd like to hope that it largely comes down to fitting and pilot skill rather than ship stats, so that even though you could potentially get more out of an Iteron V, it doesn't really make much of a difference.
I'd like to think that's true also, but it's not. Sure, once you can fly a deep space transport, you can have a ship that'll carry almost as much as an iteron V, but it's really expensive. I prefer being able to buy a cheap industrial wherever I am rather than having to ferry my one big expensive industrial across the galaxy all the time.

I often feel a strong regret for my choice to pursue the Caldari Industrial early in the game. I remapped my attributes at one point to better train intelligence and memory skills, so it would have been rather inefficient to train a new industrial skill (perception/willpower). That's one potential drawback of training down the wrong path: remapping your attributes before you find out it was a mistake.

Tech 1 industrials used in high security space are pretty much valued by cargo capacity only. There's something to be said for tanking ability (to fend off suicide ganks), but the bigger cargoholds generally tank better anyway. So if you want a short term plan, choose your industrial by the time you want to spend training for it:
  • Amarr: 20,256m3 at level 1 (a half hour)
  • Minmatar: 27,129m3 at level 4 (4 days)
  • Gallente: 38,433m3 at level 5 (18 days)
    • And there's no point in choosing Caldari for any industrial cargohold investment at all. They shine at freighters:
  • Caldari Charon: 981,250m3 max
  • Gallente Obelisk: 937,500m3 max
  • Amarr Providence: 918,750m3 max
  • Minmatar Fenrir: 900,000m3 max
    • Note that the freighters vary much less in cargo capacity than standard industrials. (The Charon beats the Fenrir by a mere 9%, while the Mammoth beats the Bestower by 34%, the Iteron Mark IV by 37%, and the Badger Mark II by 43%.)


    Deep Space Transports
    Just in case you were curious, I went and calculated the cargo capacity of all deep-space transports to compare with industrials. Keep in mind these cargohold sizes are viable only in high-security space; anywhere else you might want to fit other items in the low slots for defense.
  • Amarr Impel: 36,219m3
  • Caldari Bustard: 30,635m3
  • Gallente Occator: 35,508m3
  • Minmatar Mastodon: 29,242m3
    • The Amarr get the best improvement here--their deep space transport holds a lot more than a bestower. The Caldari get a good improvement too, though what they end up with isn't much bigger than the Minmatar transport. The Minmatar get almost no improvement over the Mammoth, and the Gallente Iteron V is actually bigger than all of these. On the other hand, however, it is easier to fit a shield tank on the Caldari and Minmatar transports, and that can actually make them better in both defense AND cargohold at the same time.

    I think CCP should put a stacking penalty on multiple cargohold expanders and re-adjust all the figures to compensate, because as it is, armor ships just beat shield ships in cargo capacity without defenses, but shield ships beat armor ships when defenses are applied. It makes the ships shine in exactly one-half of the field while failing miserably in the other. But that's a topic for another discussion. Just thought you should know.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
    Caellan Traverse
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #22 - 2012-03-28 00:36:39 UTC
    Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
    snip

    Thanks for such a detailed reply. You made a great point about 'time to train' being a large factor. So even though the Iteron V outshines everything else, it also takes a significant investment of time to train for.

    I love the look of the Amarr Indies and the Providence, so I think I'll be heading for those. It's crazy how much aesthetics matter to me. The Bestower is cheap and really fast to train for, so that will allow me to jump in and see if I enjoy playing the market and running contracts. If I do, I'll think about training up to the Providence.

    At the same time, I've already trained up for a Vexor, so now I'm looking into fittings and the skills they will need, and saving up some cash. Once I've got a Vexor and a Bestower in my name, I'll stick with them for a while and see which I prefer.

    Thanks again for your help, Reaver. It's been invaluable Big smile
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #23 - 2012-03-28 02:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
    Caellan Traverse wrote:
    snip
    Glad to hear it!

    I've got a Vexor fit for you to try.

    High Power Slots:
    4x Dual 150mm Railgun I (Antimatter, Lead, and Tungsten ammo each x2500 in cargohold)
    1x Small Nosferatu I

    Medium Power Slots:
    10MN Afterburner I
    Stasis Webifier I
    Medium Capacitor Booster I (Cap Booster Charge 200 x20 in cargohold)

    Low Power Slots:
    Damage Control I
    Armor Kinetic Hardener I
    Armor Thermic Hardener I
    Medium Armor Repairer I

    Drones:
    Hobgoblin I x5
    Hammerhead I x5
    whatever else you want (or just some backups)

    This is a very basic fit. If you're running level 1 or 2 missions in this ship, you'll usually not need to use your capacitor boosters. Note that your capacitor recharges fastest at about 33%. If you drain it too low by using your armor repairer, it will actually recharge more slowly. But you can fix that with a quick injection of capacitor. In fact, if you start taking heavy damage, you can run the armor repairer almost nonstop as long as you keep a constant supply of cap booster charges restoring the capacitor you use up. Since the Vexor holds a lot, you can put plenty of cap booster charges in it and still have room for mission loot.

    You will need to pick out meta variants of the modules on this fit (such as Prototype Armor Thermic Hardener I) because many of them cost less CPU, or else you will go over your CPU limit. I'll leave the shopping up to you on that one. You might have to train your electronics skill higher or remove the nosferatu and leave that slot empty. Another way to reduce CPU is to train the skill Weapons Upgrades, which reduces the cpu costs of all turrets and launchers by 10% per level.

    In missions, you'll notice that you often get swarmed by lots of little ships. They're difficult to hit, especially with your big slow cruiser guns. Fortunately for you, they'll fly within 10km. Use the stasis webifier on them, and your hammerheads will now be able to hit them easily. You can take them out pretty quickly this way. Also try hitting them with your railguns while they're still a ways away. You should have around 12km range or more with antimatter ammo, around 20km with lead, or perhaps as much as 30km with tungsten. If you fire at them when they're almost at max range, you'll usually get better hits on them.

    Lastly, I picked kinetic and thermal hardeners since you'll likely be running missions against Serpentis pirates. Try not to take missions against Caldari or Amarr, you don't want to lower your standings with them because it'll be extremely difficult to repair those standings later.
    Serpentis deal thermal and kinetic damage.
    Guristas pirates deal mostly kinetic and some thermal damage.
    Angel Cartel deal all damage types in order from most to least: explosive, kinetic, thermal, EM.
    Blood Raiders deal thermal and EM damage.
    Sansha deal mostly EM and some thermal damage.

    Those are the five primary pirate factions. If you plan on doing much mission running, then save this to a note or something so you can pull it up later. Always check your mission targets (there is a small icon on the mission page) and choose your hardeners accordingly. Try not to fight Angel Cartel with an armor tank!

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
    Devore Sekk
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #24 - 2012-03-28 09:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Devore Sekk
    As long as we have a great transports thread, I'll ask my question :)

    What would you recommend for a low skill pilot to run PI out of a quiet low sec pocket? Currently I have a Bestower that I equip with 2 warp core stabs (to hopefully foil the simple gank) and two nanos in the lows, the usual shield extenders/invulns, and safe warps from the gates for a quick jump that I pre-scouted. It's only 8k EHP, 10k with a DC, I wonder if it's even worth it at all, haven't had to test this yet ;) Would the MWD/cloak/warp trick even work with it?

    Ah, nm that last one, only Mammoth can fit MWD after playing with EFT, I'm actually about a day away from flying it, with good support skills if I do say so myself, and about 20 days from a cloaky transport. It's just, I'd rather train other stuff.
    Caellan Traverse
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #25 - 2012-03-28 09:38:55 UTC
    Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
    Caellan Traverse wrote:
    snip

    I've got a Vexor fit for you to try.

    Again, wow! Thanks for helping out so much!

    I've bookmarked this page for the info. I'm looking to use the Vexor for exploration (mainly Archaeology/Salvaging) rather than mission running, but with such detailed info like this I'm definitely going to invest in this fit as well and give mission running a go. I know it's something of a taboo to use terms like this, but I see mission running as 'quests' in games like WoW, and I never enjoyed questing in MMOs. Probably my Lineage 2 background training me to get to where I want to be through my own work, rather than leaning on NPCs and doing whatever it is they want me to do.

    I will give it a spin though and see how mission running compares. Perhaps there's enough variety with missions that I'll really enjoy it. What I liked about the thought of exploration is that it combines that sense of treasure hunting with the odd bout of combat, and it's all down to me - I go where I want to go, rather than where an NPC tells me to go. If that makes sense P

    But I would like to try out a bunch of different playstyles before settling on one to specialize in, and now you've given me a great reason to jump into mission running. Thanks! Big smile
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #26 - 2012-03-28 10:41:55 UTC
    Devore Sekk:

    I'm not sure what I would recommend as far as a PI transport in lowsec, but I can tell you a bit about your options:
    The Blockade Runner Transport is great for running through lowsec from gate to gate because it can fit a covert ops cloak and cloak while warping or aligning to warp. But if you're collecting PI mats from a customs office, you won't be able to be cloaked while you're within pickup range (plus you have to decloak to get the items anyway). So that will leave you briefly vulnerable.
    The Deep Space Transport has +2 warp strength, and you can add more warp core stabilizers if you feel you might need them. It can also fit far better tank than a tech 1 industrial. On the flip side, it's very expensive to lose, and any decent-sized gang will kill it about as easily as they'll kill a bestower.
    Your Bestower might be the best option just because a load of PI mats isn't worth all that much, and you can simply work to mitigate losses, accepting that you will have some every now and then.

    What you can also do to help mitigate losses:
    1.) Join a lowsec corp, and live in the systems they inhabit. Their presence will keep the system far more secure.
    2.) Get a friend or alternate character/account to help you scout (running two clients makes this easy). You can have the scout fly a griffin or blackbird (cheap throwaway ECM ships) and sit 50-100km away from the customs office to scout. That way, on the off-chance someone comes by all of a sudden or decloaks next to your industrial, the ECM ship can jam them and enable you to escape intact.
    3.) Always check local and your map for system activity levels. The best times to go out are when there are zero non-friendly pilots in the system.

    Lastly, here's a somewhat controversial tanking trick I invented that you might find helpful:
    You put a 400mm armor plate and an em and thermal armor hardener in the lows, then a medium shield extender and kinetic and explosive shield hardeners in the mids. If you have slots left over, you can add a damage control, energized adaptive nano membrane, invulnerability field; you might put on a kinetic shield rig and a thermal armor pump rig. This fit will maximize effective HP to any one damage type. You'll be much safer from stealth bombers, lasers, missiles, and most types of projectile ammo. But you'll be considerably weaker to hybrid weapons. I like to fit my ships that way when I have a jamming ship nearby, to make sure the brittle industrial lasts long enough for the attacker to be jammed.


    Caelian Traverse:
    If you want to get into exploring, I am fairly certain you should check out wormhole space. I don't have a lot of experience with exploration, but I have noticed that almost all of the sites in highsec are NPC sites, with a handful of mining sites and everything else is both rare and worthless. But in wormhole space, a wide variety of anomalies are pretty common. It's also pretty random. Sometimes you go for a couple weeks without seeing much of anything interesting, sometimes you find a system just filled to the brim with gas clouds, with a few hacking and archaeology sites to top it off (happened to us once).

    I'm in a wormhole corp, so if you want to check out wormhole space some time, I can take you out for a spin and show you the ropes.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
    Toshiro GreyHawk
    #27 - 2012-03-28 12:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk
    As to the Iteron V - yes - it's downside is the training time.

    As to using a Bestower now - yeah that's pretty much what I did. Then as I got more money and had more training time available I went to Mammoth's and then later still began training guys to fly the Iteron V. So it is the kind of thing you can work yourself up to.


    As to Low Sec /WH penetration ...

    I've not done a lot of that in a while but when I was doing it, I found the use of a cloak helpful.

    Cloaking Devices


    Read the descriptions at the bottom of the page for each of the devices as to what it can and cannot do.

    The Covert Ops cloak is only useable by specialty ships - such as Covert Ops ships and Blockade Runners. With this cloak on a ship equipped to carry it - you can warp while cloaked. Not so with any of the others.

    The Improved Cloaking Device II is the good one that other ships can use - and the one that works with the cloak/mwd trick.

    The Prototype Cloak is the cheap one that will work with anything ... just not all that well.


    Even the cheap one though can save your ass. So if you're going into a hostile area to play cat & mouse (you being the mouse) taking along one of these is a good idea.

    Also - you want to get in there and make yourself some safe spots before hand - if you warp to a safe spot and cloak up - they'll never find you. Note that dropping a bookmark between celestials - is not a safe spot ... you do that to start making your safe spots if you don't have any from missions or exploration - but then you warp between the spots you just dropped and drop some more - these are the safe spots.

    There are a number of threads on Low Sec survival. Check these out and then practice in High Sec. Don't go down to Low Sec and be fumbling around trying to remember what you read on the forums. Get your procedures down pat in High Sec - then go adventuring ...


    You can do quite a bit down in Low Sec - if you're willing to work at it - but it really is a pain in the ass if all you want to do is make money. Still - it is a really good learning experience. Even if you pretty much stay in Hi Sec later - if someone starts messing with you - a lot of the things you learned in Low Sec, such as watching for scanner probes ... can come in handy.


    The number one thing to remember about playing Cat & Mouse as the mouse - is that patience is primary. Impatient mice are dead mice ...

    The other part of that - is knowing when to act - and then acting decisively.




    .
    Sister Rhode
    SUNDERING
    Goonswarm Federation
    #28 - 2012-03-30 15:52:38 UTC
    The main buyers and users of drugs in Eve are super cap pilots, and pilots who fly specific doctrines (armor hacks for example). Basically high end pvp.

    Most of these players have established sources through their corps or alliances, so it could be difficult to find a market for your product.

    Inside a large corp or alliance I'm sure you could find a niche as the main pusher, but it would be far from the smuggler playstyle I think you might be envisioning.
    Caellan Traverse
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #29 - 2012-03-30 20:45:29 UTC
    Sister Rhode wrote:

    Inside a large corp or alliance I'm sure you could find a niche as the main pusher, but it would be far from the smuggler playstyle I think you might be envisioning.

    Yep, that's what I've come to realize. It's a shame, but now I'm equally excited at the long term prospects of either exploration or low-sec trade. And given how long this game has lasted, and given how many upgrades it's received over the years to keep it looking and playing great, I think it's a safe bet to assume there will be many more fantastic additions in the coming years. Especially with Dust on the horizon.
    Elsebeth Rhiannon
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    #30 - 2012-03-31 14:49:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
    gfldex wrote:
    To elaborate a little on the Why.

    Some years ago there used to be plenty of goods that where quite illegal in empire space. Most of them could be acquired in bulk in 0.0 space. Cunning individuals found it to be most amusing to drop those items in cans right in front of the station in noob systems. The customs did their thing, ships where lost, whining ensued and petitions queues where filled.

    There is nothing CCP hates more then filled petition queues. As a result your profession was petty much nerfed out of existence.

    In EVE whining back fires.

    The running of goods to where they are illegal was never really profitable, even before selling them on stations was made impossible. You could do it for fun and flavor, but it did not really generate an income. People were not just willing to pay enough for them in high-sec to make it worthwhile. Also most of the illegal goods then were "flavor" items, such as slaves and drugs that did nothing. Boosters came in only later. So smuggling was always a boring and useless thing, so much so that I am not sure "nerfing" is a good word here. Can you nerf something that was already complete waste of time?

    I know this, because my corp had an idea in beta and right after launch to make a living of it and make it part of our backstory. After eight years, we are still waiting for it to be made possible. Maybe one day, but I'd not hold my breath waiting...

    EDITed to add: low-sec trade gives you sort of the same kicks, as someone pointed out. Run goods somewhere in a fast / evasive ship, while other people are trying to blow you up. (My corp does that now. Among other stuff.)
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