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Criminals and Safe Orca utilization
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Coug
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-03-25 18:35:11 UTC
I've been a 0.0 pilot for most of my career, but I saw something in low sec today that I didn't understand at first. There was a -10sec status in a Legion on a gate with an Orca right next to him. After asking my corp mates what that was about, they told me about an exploit. Namely, that if the Legion pilot gets into trouble, the Orca scoops up the Legion and jumps through the gate (into Hi-Sec) completely safe from combat (and as the Orca isn't aggressing, can instantly jump).

Ultimately, this means that the criminal is 99% safe at all times (assuming the criminal is in a ship big enough that prevents him from being alpha'd).

I'm not sure what the best method to resolving this would be; if scooping a criminal should be outright prevented, if the criminal status should be contagious and transfer to the scooping ship, or what other solution would be best.

Note: I was not ganked by this Legion, but I was trying to figure out how I wanted to attack him when I was waived off by my corp mates due to the impervious nature of the setup.
Vanessa Serenity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-03-25 18:40:07 UTC
Imo, make the aggression timer also transfer to the ship. And that you may not scoop up a ship with aggression timer.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-03-25 19:18:05 UTC
this sounds gay, ccp look into this while you're replacing crimewatch
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2012-03-25 21:28:24 UTC
I'm surprised you were unaware of this OP... considering that PL does use this mechanic to its advantage from time to time (prolly learned it from the Heretics).

This is an OOOOOOLD issue and I wholeheartedly support its end.

How did you Veterans start?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-03-25 21:31:35 UTC
Vanessa Serenity wrote:
Imo, make the aggression timer also transfer to the ship. And that you may not scoop up a ship with aggression timer.

Well it's not like you can have both of these.

I agree that this seems to be a rather flawed mechanic that should end.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Sieges
#6 - 2012-03-25 22:41:35 UTC
Vanessa Serenity wrote:
Imo, make the aggression timer also transfer to the ship. And that you may not scoop up a ship with aggression timer.

This sounds good. And damn you have a hot avatar Big smile
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#7 - 2012-03-26 00:48:30 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vanessa Serenity wrote:
Imo, make the aggression timer also transfer to the ship. And that you may not scoop up a ship with aggression timer.

Well it's not like you can have both of these.

I agree that this seems to be a rather flawed mechanic that should end.

What about a friend in a pod that jumps in the ship and jumps the gate?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Adunh Slavy
#8 - 2012-03-26 01:54:18 UTC
Yep, this needs adjustment IMO. Probably the most straight forward and brutal idea I have seen is, if the player has the 60 second agression counter, they simply can not use the maintinance bay.

I would also suggest that any "suspect" that does use a maintinance bay, also gives the suspect to the Orca. Also, if the Orca pilot has their Crimewatch satfties turned on, then no suspect may use their bay.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Asudem
Black Spear.
#9 - 2012-03-26 03:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Asudem
A pilot who gained aggression just cannot jump out of his ship - problem solved. No change for the Orca or its use needed after all.

The downside is that piracy actions where you tackle and take away someones ship will be more complicated, but I dont mind that at all. Rather I would like to see my ship pop instead of handing it over to a pirate, so **** that.
HoWaa
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-03-26 03:44:57 UTC
an orca on a gate?? what about a baiting t3 outside a station with alt carrier inside station ready to undock and rep or scoop the bait t3 ship if he cant break the tank or cant get out...Damn overpowered...
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-03-26 04:49:47 UTC
Don't engage obvious WTF is that doing there? Straight

Really, an orca? Something smells fishy and it isn't the girl you brought home. Move along, find another target.

And its currently working as intended. That means, its tied to the player, which is tied to the pod, which isn't tied to the ship they just jumped out. So, aim for the orca instead and ram it out side scooping range assuming you have competent back up webbing the loki farther away. ****, force the orca off grid FFS and don't worry about the Loki at first if its just 1 ship.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#12 - 2012-03-26 06:50:47 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Don't engage obvious WTF is that doing there? Straight

Really, an orca? Something smells fishy and it isn't the girl you brought home. Move along, find another target.

And its currently working as intended. That means, its tied to the player, which is tied to the pod, which isn't tied to the ship they just jumped out. So, aim for the orca instead and ram it out side scooping range assuming you have competent back up webbing the loki farther away. ****, force the orca off grid FFS and don't worry about the Loki at first if its just 1 ship.


Solution to all large ship problems - Bump them into oblivionPirate

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Zombo Brian
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-03-26 07:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zombo Brian
well, theorca pilot should get aggression timer because he is helping a criminal, it should be the same as repping criminals up with a logistic really

obviously an exploit, please:

fix it fix it fix it fix it fix it.....
Asudem
Black Spear.
#14 - 2012-03-26 09:47:07 UTC
Technicaly the Orca pilot doesnt do anything. He might give boosts like a ogb, but thats all. So you cannot judge it like repping or something. Even if you judge him like a repper, he still could jump without any delay. This wouldnt solve anything.
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-03-26 10:10:38 UTC
its your fault engaging when a ship with SMB is near, its similarly g*y as fighting at stations, you know the mechanics so if they getting used against you its your fault, HTFU & STFU
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#16 - 2012-03-27 00:40:18 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
its your fault engaging when a ship with SMB is near, its similarly g*y as fighting at stations, you know the mechanics so if they getting used against you its your fault, HTFU & STFU


The problem here lies in the circumstances in which this is being used

You can CHOOSE to engage someone at a station or ignore them. It's no skin off your nose if you fly right on by

What the OP is referring to is a particular gate (Amamake-Osoggur) that happens to be a "chokepoint" with no real way around (the "alternate" route will still take you through Amamake)

My guys have, on numerous occasions in the past, attempted to blow up the camp. As soon as we appear on D-scan the camper's ships are thrown into the Orca, their pods warp away, and the Orca jumps through. We linger for about 5, 10 minutes hoping they come back... nothing does... so we leave. Not 5 minutes after this the campers are back. We go then back... rinse and repeat

Now...
Sending in tanky bait whose mission is to bump the Orca off gate is technically possible... but when you have skirmish bonused scrams and webs holding you down it isn't really possible
Black-ops gangs aren't that much more viable as the Orca is technically "neutral"... which means that in order to kill it you need to go GCC (and it doesn't require a stretch of the imagination to know what gate-guns do to stealth bombers). And the Orca can still jump through into high-sec anyways


The issue here is that there really is no way to force a fight and/or catch people using this tactic with better tactics

Personal note: I'm perfectly okay with the act of gate-camping itself. I too occasionally indulge in it. But you shouldn't be able to perform it in such a stupidly safe way.

How did you Veterans start?
MirrorGod
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-04-10 06:36:55 UTC
This should be fixed.

Just as soon as we fix the MWD->Cloak->Uncloak->Warp exploit.

-10 for lyfe, it's all about the good fights.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6070/6122338654_85e9bbfca9_z.jpg
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#18 - 2012-04-10 13:46:21 UTC
lol exploit?? THere is no cloak warp exploit, its a regular mechanic.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#19 - 2012-04-10 17:24:40 UTC
My only problem with this is the Orca should get aggression as well.

Let him pick up the aggression ship, just be ready to accept some consequences.



Possible counter to this would be a MWD fit Mach, just bump the Orca away (unless mechanics of bumping change in the next expansion).
Tetsel
House Amamake
#20 - 2012-04-12 14:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tetsel
I think CCP should ban Titan from lowsec as using them at gate camping is 99% risk free...

Robert Caldera wrote:
lol exploit?? There is no cloak warp exploit, its a regular mechanic.


Same as putting a hull into another hull, pilots are the criminal, hull are just innocent tools you should not blame them. Why this poor orca should take agression from this poor neutral legion ? After all the pilot himself never dock into the orca, and the orca pilot never activly help, he just forget to lockdown his bay... Shocked

This is not an exploit, it's just that orca pilots are ********. Pirate

Loyal servent to Mother Amamake. @EVE_Tetsel

Another Bittervet Please Ignore
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