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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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On [Winter] Marauder Rebalancing

First post
Author
Cael Autumn
Dark 0rder.
VINDICTIVE
#1 - 2013-09-05 22:07:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Cael Autumn
Greetings F&I Discussion goers. I have already voiced one set of my complaints and suggestions in the parent thread. You can read that little gem right here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3573509#post3573509.

I am making another topic, because this is more a commentary on the entirety of that threadnought and the demonstrated ineptitude by CCP in this foray, than a comment on the changes themselves.

In one week, the announcement post has shot up to 137 pages- surpassing even the HAC - Round Two thread in 5 weeks, and the Command Ships thread did in four. It's quite evident that marauders are of some importance to the eve community; everyone wants them to be 'a thing' - everyone wants them to be viable for reasons other than carebearing.

CCP has been fumbling around, completely changing marauders rather than rebalancing them. They are further niching an already single-purpose ship. Giving them HAC resists was perhaps the one good thing they've done.

I don't agree with the bastion module. For a simple comparison, in nullsec anomalies, you'll get 900-1000 dps with great projection, but you're vulnerable and static for a minute at a time. A sentry carrier by comparison, has nearly the same hull cost, t1 insurance, doesn't go immobile, has better tank, same ewar impunity, and can jump to cynobeacons in order to get out at a moments notice. That's a non-niched ship completely outclassing a dedicated one.


Dear CCP,

Don't completely re-do marauders, they are good at what they do, just let them do other things.




Forget the tanking bonus, bastion module, etc.

Give them ewar immunity as a role bonus and be done with it, no other changes necessary. If you want to make them projection platforms, try giving them the destroyer's optimal role bonus, like so:


Kronos:
GalBS: 7.5% rep amount, 7.5% web strength
Marauders: 5% LHT Damage, 7.5% LHT Tracking

Role Bonus:
100% Bonus to Large Hybrid turret damage
50% Bonus to Large Hybrid turret Optimal
Immune to all forms of electronic warfare except warp disruption and stasis webification effects.

+t2 resists
MarauderTractorBonus

Golem:
CalBS: 7.5% Boost Amount, 7.5% Target Painter Strength
Marauders: 5% LargeMissileROF, 7.5% LargeMissileExplosionVelocity

Role Bonus:
100% Bonus to Torpedo And Cruise Missile Damage
50% Bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile velocity
Immune to all forms of electronic warfare except warp disruption and stasis webification effects.
+t2 resists
MarauderTractorBonus


Vargur:
MinBS: 7.5% Boost Amount, 5% Large Projectile Damage
Marauder: 5% Large Projectile Rate of Fire, 10% Large Projectile Falloff

Role Bonus:
100% Large Projectile Turret Damage
50% Large Projectile Turret Optimal
Immune to all forms of electronic warfare except warp disruption and stasis webification effects.
+t2 Resists
MarauderTractorBonus


Paladin:
AmaBS: 7.5% Repair Amount, 7.5% Web Amount
Marauder: 5% Large Energy Damage, 7.5% Large Energy Turret Tracking

Role Bonus:
100% Large Energy Turret Damage
50% Large Energy Turret Optimal
Immune to all forms of electronic warfare except warp disruption and stasis webification effects.
+t2 Resists
MarauderTractorBonus



This is not set in stone or balance tested, but simply an idea I've had to give marauders a role in the scope of EVE. Being EWAR immune would be a very useful ability in both pvp and pve. There would be no need to create a new siege module or skill, they would simply be good. They could even retain their awful sensor strength to be easy to scan down ^^.

A marauder would pose an interesting threat in small gang warfare against the likes of the dreaded falcon and the emerging arazu/celestis menace.

I can see myself flying one of these.
Yakima DWB
Baited Sting
#2 - 2013-09-05 23:16:48 UTC
The Bastion thing sounds cool, but if you want to change ships that drastically, why wouldn't you create a new ship/ship class for it?

I like the idea of Marauders getting ewar immunities, would be a nice shake-up without completely changing how they work. +1
Cade Windstalker
#3 - 2013-09-05 23:33:27 UTC
Yakima DWB wrote:
The Bastion thing sounds cool, but if you want to change ships that drastically, why wouldn't you create a new ship/ship class for it?

I like the idea of Marauders getting ewar immunities, would be a nice shake-up without completely changing how they work. +1


Probably because Marauders are in a lousy spot overall and, as you said, it's a really cool idea.

E-War immune with no inherent tradeoffs on the other hand would be horribly OP, case and point Supercaps.
Balthazar Lestrane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-09-06 00:24:28 UTC
I can't pretend to know much about Marauders, nor do I plan on ever really flying them. But isn't EWAR immunity a complete flip-flop from what they currently are? I thought their drawback in PvP was the weak sensor strength, right? So like Cade said, where is the trade-off for this complete 180?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5 - 2013-09-06 00:39:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
i think they were originally balanced with massive combat capability but weak sensor strength. but then faction BS's and then much later T1 BS's were greatly improved, leaving marauders behind

the first intro of marauders was before my time tho

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Cade Windstalker
#6 - 2013-09-06 00:58:17 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
i think they were originally balanced with massive combat capability but weak sensor strength. but then faction BS's and then much later T1 BS's were greatly improved, leaving marauders behind

the first intro of marauders was before my time tho


Bit of Eve history here. The Marauders were introduced right after people, specifically Pandemic Legion, discovered how awesome Spider-Tanking Battleships were. The fear was that Marauders would become the ultimate spider-tanking BS. To counter this they were given low sensor strength, making them fairly easy to jam out and therefore poor at spider-tanking.

Unfortunately, as Ytterbium said, this made them "Jam me forever target dummies". As long as they have a ton of spare high slots as a class they're going to need to keep the low sensor strength.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2013-09-06 01:30:53 UTC
Marauders were very niche before. They still retain strength in that niche but these changes allow them to branch off into quite a few more niches. While there are some nerfs (speed, agility, and drone bay) there have also been some buffs to the ship itself (T2 resists, web bonuses on the vargur and golem, weapon range on the kronos and paladin) which really exand their potential. The bastion module in combination with the MJD bonus expands their tanking which allows them to go more places and do more things. They will still be pretty niche, however, it will be a broader range of niches.

Some current playstyles will have to adapt, but there will be many new ones for the same ship.

And the ewar bonus should not be a hull thing. Like Balthazar said, it's a complete 180 on the reason these ships have weak sensor strength.
Cael Autumn
Dark 0rder.
VINDICTIVE
#8 - 2013-09-06 02:56:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cael Autumn
Rowells wrote:
Marauders were very niche before. They still retain strength in that niche but these changes allow them to branch off into quite a few more niches. While there are some nerfs (speed, agility, and drone bay) there have also been some buffs to the ship itself (T2 resists, web bonuses on the vargur and golem, weapon range on the kronos and paladin) which really exand their potential. The bastion module in combination with the MJD bonus expands their tanking which allows them to go more places and do more things. They will still be pretty niche, however, it will be a broader range of niches.

Some current playstyles will have to adapt, but there will be many new ones for the same ship.

And the ewar bonus should not be a hull thing. Like Balthazar said, it's a complete 180 on the reason these ships have weak sensor strength.



Good comments, guys. Keep them coming.

I'd like to dismiss the argument that "ewar immunity is a 180 from their weak sensor strength" - as Cade Windstalker explained, that weakness was a result of the spider-tanking battleship trend of the time, that honestly has long past. Because of the relatively low (120-200k ehp) hitpoints of marauders and high cost, in large fleet engagements they wouldn't be cost effective to field the amount of DPS/remote tank even without the ability to be jammed.

Due to the still limited mobility, large signature, and limited range of unbonused RR modules, marauders would take near full damage from their opponents. Against fleets of above 50, billion isk battleships (hull only) would be alpha'd off the field.

What I am more concerned about is the "unjammable tackle" aspect of being invulnerable. What's to stop a Golem from fitting 7 points and holding 7 falcons down indefinitely? Or a kronos scramming + webbing a freighter and a thousand falcons attempt to jam him, a thousand arazus try to sensor damp him, and a thousand curses try to tracking disrupt him... to no effect.

In these situations, I wouldn't necessarily say that strength is out of the price range. Compare the usefulness of this ship to a carrier, because they are of similar cost.
ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#9 - 2013-09-06 03:36:20 UTC
Greetings

This thread is being locked as a duplicate thread, I believe there is already a great discussion going on concerning this topic. You can find it here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3573509#post3573509. Keep the great discussions going, just follow the forum rules while doing it.

On On

ISD Flidais Asagiri Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department