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PvP Question From a New Player

Author
Rusef Book
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-02-05 20:21:18 UTC
Hey guys,

So I've been playing EVE for about 2 months now with my brother (We both started at the same time). We've been doing our best to get into pvp and have been met with nothing but death after death. This is fine with us, however, as we take each loss as a learning experience.

Yesterday we finally got our first kill. It was vs a Tristan and, obviously, wasn't even a real fight. But hey, I'll take it.

Anyway after this kill we were feeling good about our abilities to scan and track easy targets when we came across a Caldari Navy Hookbill. I was a bit worried that it was a Navy issue ship and, thus, may be slightly more powerful than our slashers, but i'll take a 2v1 frigate battle any day.

We started the fight from 300km out. Having Slashers with good afterburners we were able to run the Hook down after a few minutes. It was at this time that he turned and headed straight for me. I attempted to turn around and kite him back towards my brother and it was at this time that everyone engaged. In less than 10 seconds my Slasher went, "POP" and my brother only got the Hook down to 1/2 shields before he eventually met his inevitable demise.

My question to you guys is.... How the hell did this happen? how can a tier 1 frig hold such an advantage over other tier 1 frigs? We had him outnumbered and still never even stood a chance. It's been bothering me ever since I logged off last night. Any light you could shed on this would be greatly appreciated.

TL;DR How the hell can a Caldari Navy Hookbill dispatch 2 slashers in less than 30 seconds!?
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#2 - 2013-02-05 20:43:17 UTC
Rusef Book wrote:
TL;DR How the hell can a Caldari Navy Hookbill dispatch 2 slashers in less than 30 seconds!?


Er, it's not a tier 1 frigate, it's a faction frigate. Compare the two and you'll see there's a heck of a difference. Also, the fitting may have a lot to do with it. Maybe he was using shiny modules that take up less CPU or powergrid and thus allow him to fit things on there that you can't normally fit. There are lots of maybes. Next time convo the guy and ask him outright. Most people are willing to show off their fits if you're not a douchebag. I respect you and your brother for going out looking for fights, especially EVE style: 2:1.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#3 - 2013-02-05 20:45:09 UTC
Well for one slashers are paper thin. You took on a combat frigate with an attack frigate. Since he burned right at you he probably webbed you, ruined any speed advantage you had, and let loose with rockets that were able to do full damage since you weren't moving as fast.

You MIGHT have stood a chance had you both been in rifters with heavies tanks.

The Drake is a Lie

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#4 - 2013-02-05 20:45:26 UTC
Skills

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Rusef Book
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-02-05 20:47:48 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Rusef Book wrote:
TL;DR How the hell can a Caldari Navy Hookbill dispatch 2 slashers in less than 30 seconds!?


I respect you and your brother for going out looking for fights, especially EVE style: 2:1.


^ this gave me a chuckle.

I realized it was a faction ship but I really didn't think there would be that much of a difference. Before entering the fight I check the market and the price for the Hook was the exact same as the Slasher (If not slightly cheaper).

That's what had me all confused, because, for all intents and purposes, it seemed like a pretty equal ship.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#6 - 2013-02-05 20:49:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
You attacked a steroid popping Shark with 2 elderly, handicapped Dolphins. For the life of me I can't figure out how you blowed up....

Twisted
Rusef Book
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-02-05 20:51:12 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
You took on a combat frigate with an attack frigate.

You MIGHT have stood a chance had you both been in rifters with heavies tanks.


Thanks for this....

I did not know there was a difference in T1 Frigs.

So I guess the new question is; Are Slashers good frigs for a new player to get into PvP with? If not, what would you recommend?
De BuG
Small Focused Memes
#8 - 2013-02-05 20:52:16 UTC
All navy frigates have exceptional bonuses when you have racial frigate level 5, all have double damage and another bonus like tracking or optimal range. Since they also have a slot bonus over normal frigs, usually they come out on top even when it's 1v3.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#9 - 2013-02-05 20:52:58 UTC
Rusef Book wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
You took on a combat frigate with an attack frigate.

You MIGHT have stood a chance had you both been in rifters with heavies tanks.


Thanks for this....

I did not know there was a difference in T1 Frigs.

So I guess the new question is; Are Slashers good frigs for a new player to get into PvP with? If not, what would you recommend?


RIFTERS!!! Rifters with friggin laser beams. Ok, maybe not, go autocannons, but stay RIFTERS.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#10 - 2013-02-05 20:53:01 UTC
Rusef Book wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Rusef Book wrote:
TL;DR How the hell can a Caldari Navy Hookbill dispatch 2 slashers in less than 30 seconds!?


I respect you and your brother for going out looking for fights, especially EVE style: 2:1.


^ this gave me a chuckle.

I realized it was a faction ship but I really didn't think there would be that much of a difference. Before entering the fight I check the market and the price for the Hook was the exact same as the Slasher (If not slightly cheaper).

That's what had me all confused, because, for all intents and purposes, it seemed like a pretty equal ship.


Slasher - 5% bonus to small projectile turrent damage per level
Hookbill - 10% bonus to missile velocity and 20% bonus to kinetic damage per level or 10% bonus to EM, THERM, EXP per level.

Note the slight difference?

Also it has almost double the armor HP. Better thermal resists. More than double the shield HP. Oh and an extra MID slot.

These are the details you have to pay attention to.
Skorpynekomimi
#11 - 2013-02-05 20:53:33 UTC
Rusef Book wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
You took on a combat frigate with an attack frigate.

You MIGHT have stood a chance had you both been in rifters with heavies tanks.


Thanks for this....

I did not know there was a difference in T1 Frigs.

So I guess the new question is; Are Slashers good frigs for a new player to get into PvP with? If not, what would you recommend?


Get Rifters. More slots, heavier tank. More expensive, but worth it.

Economic PVP

De'Veldrin
The Suicide Kings
Dreadbomb.
#12 - 2013-02-05 20:56:42 UTC
Rusef Book wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
You took on a combat frigate with an attack frigate.

You MIGHT have stood a chance had you both been in rifters with heavies tanks.


Thanks for this....

I did not know there was a difference in T1 Frigs.

So I guess the new question is; Are Slashers good frigs for a new player to get into PvP with? If not, what would you recommend?


Slashers aren't bad - you just picked a bad target. You learned from the experience and that what matters. If you plan to do heavy in your face frigate combat with Minmatar, might I suggest the Rifter. Once you're comfortable with it, and win more than you lose, upgrade to the Republic Fleet Firetail (which is a rifter on steroids - the Minmatar version of the Hookbill). If you really want to pimp your ride after that, cross train Gallente and grab either the Dramiel or the Daredevil.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#13 - 2013-02-05 21:00:38 UTC
Rusef Book wrote:



TL;DR How the hell can a Caldari Navy Hookbill dispatch 2 slashers in less than 30 seconds!?

Experience and accumulated skill points can count for a lot. If properly employed. Anyone in a faction-frig is either 1) too rich to know better, or 2) (more likely) been around long enough to make the best of their skills and hull. Navy Hookbill is a pretty serious hull, and will reward a bold, experienced pilot.

Learn from this, then go get yourself some more action.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#14 - 2013-02-05 21:03:36 UTC
Yup there are 3 main classes of combat ship

Combat - heavy guns, heavy tank, move slower - brawler

Attack - heavy guns, weak tank, move faster - skirmisher

Support - Healers or electronic warfare, mid level damage, tank, and mobility...

The Drake is a Lie

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#15 - 2013-02-05 21:03:44 UTC
Rusef Book wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
You took on a combat frigate with an attack frigate.

You MIGHT have stood a chance had you both been in rifters with heavies tanks.


Thanks for this....

I did not know there was a difference in T1 Frigs.

So I guess the new question is; Are Slashers good frigs for a new player to get into PvP with? If not, what would you recommend?
Rifters, and get all your basic skills up high as you can. Worry about fancy stuff once your core skills are solid.

Or, if you like things that leave smoke trails, try a Merlin or Kestrel.
But first, get those basic skills UP. That'll do you the most good.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#16 - 2013-02-05 21:04:58 UTC
If you want to get into frigate PVP you should join RvB. There are plenty of veterans there who like blowing up noobs all day long who will teach you the ropes.

To learn the basics of frigate PVP you should take a PVP basic class from Agony Unleashed. That will teach you the fundamentals. Also, it's free if you let Somer pay for it.

To learn the finer points of PVP you should watch videos and/or livestreams. Zao Amadues and Sard Caid have excellent livestreams and there are others.

As to why you died, it's because you didn't engage simultaneously and didn't have a plan. Your fits were likely poor and your skills not up to snuff. Your opponent might have had links and/or pirate implants. Frigate fights are not supposed to last much longer than 30 seconds though.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#17 - 2013-02-05 21:07:12 UTC
What has been said about the difference in ships is true, but you also need to be forthcoming with information about how you and your brother were fit.

The best ship won't be of much use if it isn't fit at least halfway correctly. Not to imply there is only one way to fit a particular ship, but some things work well and other things don't work at all on a given ship.

Player skills may have had a small impact as well (most noteably on your damage in this case), although personal skills and tactics used may have had a bigger impact. For example he may have been able to keep a high transversal speed on you (making it difficult for your weapons to do significant damage). If he did so since you were AB fit your speed was slow enough to allow his rockets to do full damage to you while his speed remained high enough to keep your guns from tracking well.

AB fits do have uses (usually vs ships using larger guns) but in this case may have put you at a disadvantage, allowing him to dictate range and transversal speed easily.

This is speculation, so as I said some more information about your fits would be helpful.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#18 - 2013-02-05 21:17:35 UTC
Also, even when chasing, don't approach your target directly. In doing so, you played to his strengths and reduced your angular velocity relative to him == more 'boom' goes into your hull, less gets lost in space.

Spread out a bit. Aim your ship at an angle to his path. If he turns and directly runs at you, evade. He's confident he can take you, and has something nasty with your name on it. Don't reverse, take an angle to his course. Don't hit 'orbit' until you're close to your optimal orbit range. If you're kiting, make sure you're keeping your AB or MWD pulsing, don't autorun it if you can avoid it.

Know which of you is going to web, and which is going to scram. Know which of you is going in close, and which is kiting - Or know if you're both going to web/scram, and whether you're both going for his throat, or are kiting.

Put yourself in your foes' shoes - what would you do if bounced by a pair like you? Prepare a counter (or multiple counters, if you can). Initially, you're going to make mistakes. Study your mistakes. Learn from them.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#19 - 2013-02-05 21:39:38 UTC
By the way, your attitude is excellent toward this game.

Many folks will profess that EvE combat consists of nothing more than hit orbit and press F1. You two already know more about combat in EvE than they do. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

De'Veldrin
The Suicide Kings
Dreadbomb.
#20 - 2013-02-05 21:41:51 UTC
silens vesica wrote:

Put yourself in your foes' shoes - what would you do if bounced by a pair like you? Prepare a counter (or multiple counters, if you can). Initially, you're going to make mistakes. Study your mistakes. Learn from them.


One thing you could do is when you go out hunting, fraps your fights. That way you can go back and study them at your leisure - spot your mistakes, and try and come up with ways to not do that again.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

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