These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

T2 BS Class Juggernaut

Author
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#1 - 2012-12-13 23:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Griffin Omanid
To give the lasting 4 Developers also a BS I suggest the following ne T2 BS.
Names and Attributes should set by ccp because of the balancing, here is just a suggestion:

T2 ship class Juggernaut (just a project name I´ve token form SWTORCool):

Role: Tough BS who are able stay quit long on the field while dealing constant damage to other BS or Capitals. To keep it in balance with the marauders they should not get any boni to fight smaller targets, like tracking speed, explosion velocityor range, target painters and webs. But Marauders may loose there ECM-weakness.

Amarr:
Hull: Abaddon / Developer: Khanid Inovations
Slots: 8 High 5 Med 7-8 Low 8 launchers ~4 turrets
BS-Bonus
-10 % Bonus to the velocity of torpedos
-5% armour resistence bonus per level

Juggernaut bonus
-10 % Bonus on Armour HP
-5% reduction of capacitor recharge time

Caldari:
Hull: Rokh / Developer: Ishukone
Slots: 8 High 7-8 Med 5 Low ~4 launchers 8 turrets
BS-Bonus
-10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level
-5% shield resistence bonus per level

Juggernaut bonus
-10 % Bonus on Shield HP
-5% reduction of capacitor recharge time (This way you may be fit it capstable..)

Gallente
Hull: Hyperion / Developer: Roden Shipyards
Slots: 8 High 6 Med 7 Low 4-8 launchers 4-8 turrets
Reduction of Drone bandwidth to 50 Mbit/s and 75 m³ Drone space
BS-Bonus
-5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level
-7.5% bonus to armor repair amount of armor repair systems per level.

Juggernaut bonus
-10 % Bonus on Armour HP
-5 % Agility bonus

Note: I think this is the hardest one, because CCP also made it more or less clear that they don´t like ships specialised on two High Slot weapon systems cause they changed or will change a lot of Minmatar ships this way f.e. the typhon. But alos a lot of other ships of Rhoden ships uses both weapon systems but less drones, but they are also mainly EWAR, Logistic or Interdictors.
Edit: I really like the ide with the agility bonus


Minmatar
Hull: Maelstrom/ Developer: Core Complex
Slots: 8 High 7 Med 6 Low ~2 launchers 8 turrets
BS-Bonus:
5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Rate of Fire per level
7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount per level

Juggernaut bonus
-10 % Bonus on Shield HP
-3% reduction in signature radius per level (maybe a little bit crazy on a BS... got no better idea)

I hope this is a usefull suggestion and they also will have less DPS the the pirat faction ships, so that those won´t get a niche products like the pirate frigs or cruisers (in my opinion)
Sigras
Conglomo
#2 - 2012-12-14 09:00:03 UTC
I had a similar idea for a "monitor" class T2 battleship, it would specialize in dealing damage to large ships (capitals and battleships) with an Achilles heel to small ships as it has no anti frigate weapon support.

I chose the name "monitor" because traditionally the monitor ships carried disproportionately large guns. This would be to regular battleships as the tier three battlecruiser is to the regular battlecruiser.

These things would fit capital sized weapons, but no drones and only a small bonus to tracking, so they would be basically useless against anything but a webbed battleship or capital ship.

My idea for the amarrian ship is:

The Cardinal
Hull: Abaddon / Developer: Carthum Conglomerate
Slots: 8 High 5 Med 7-8 Low 0 launchers 8 turrets

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret damage per level
5% armor resistance per level

Monitor Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret tracking speed per level
10% bonus to Capital Energy Turret capacitor use per level

Role Bonus:
98% reduction in the powergrid need of Capital Energy Turrets
50% reduction in the CPU need of Capital Energy Turrets
50% reduction in the capacitor need of Capital Energy Turrets

You get the idea.
Siobhan MacLeary
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2012-12-14 13:53:45 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I had a similar idea for a "monitor" class T2 battleship, it would specialize in dealing damage to large ships (capitals and battleships) with an Achilles heel to small ships as it has no anti frigate weapon support.

I chose the name "monitor" because traditionally the monitor ships carried disproportionately large guns. This would be to regular battleships as the tier three battlecruiser is to the regular battlecruiser.

These things would fit capital sized weapons, but no drones and only a small bonus to tracking, so they would be basically useless against anything but a webbed battleship or capital ship.

My idea for the amarrian ship is:

The Cardinal
Hull: Abaddon / Developer: Carthum Conglomerate
Slots: 8 High 5 Med 7-8 Low 0 launchers 8 turrets

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret damage per level
5% armor resistance per level

Monitor Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret tracking speed per level
10% bonus to Capital Energy Turret capacitor use per level

Role Bonus:
98% reduction in the powergrid need of Capital Energy Turrets
50% reduction in the CPU need of Capital Energy Turrets
50% reduction in the capacitor need of Capital Energy Turrets

You get the idea.


So...pocket dreads, then? If so, there's already a very long thread about them elsewhere on F&I.

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2012-12-14 17:08:00 UTC

No to pocket dreads..... I really just don't see the need, and think it will further undermine the dread class, which doesn't need more undermining..... at least not given the current capital battlefield!

As for the Juggernauts... Interesting... What do you think would make them overpowered, and what drawbacks will ensure other BS's wont' become obsolete with the addition of these ships?

p.s. Thank you for NOT posting tons and tons of irrelevant ship stats...



Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#5 - 2012-12-14 17:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
Griffin Omanid wrote:
To give the lasting 4 Developers also a BS I suggest the following ne T2 BS.
Names and Attributes should set by ccp because of the balancing, here is just a suggestion:

T2 ship class Juggernaut (just a project name I´ve token form SWTORCool):

Role: Tough BS who are able stay quit long on the field while dealing constant damage to other BS or Capitals. To keep it in balance with the marauders they should not get any boni to fight smaller targets, like tracking speed, explosion velocityor range, target painters and webs. But Marauders may loose there ECM-weakness.

Amarr:
Hull: Abaddon / Developer: Khanid Inovations
Slots: 8 High 5 Med 7-8 Low 7-8 launchers ~4 turrets
BS-Bonus
-5% rof of torpedo launchers per level
-5% armour resistence bonus per level

Juggernaut bonus
-10 % Bonus on Armour HP
-10 % Bonus to the velocity of torpedos

Caldari:
Hull: Rokh / Developer: Ishukone
Slots: 8 High 7-8 Med 5 Low ~4 launchers 8 turrets
BS-Bonus
-10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level
-5% shield resistence bonus per level

Juggernaut bonus
-10 % Bonus on Shield HP
-5% reduction of capacitor recharge time (This way you may be fit it capstable..)

Gallente
Hull: Hyperion / Developer: Roden Shipyards
Slots: 8 High 6 Med 7 Low 4-8 launchers 4-8 turrets
Reduction of Drone bandwidth to 50 Mbit/s and 75 m³ Drone space
BS-Bonus
-5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level
-7.5% bonus to armor repair amount of armor repair systems per level.

Juggernaut bonus
-10 % Bonus on Armour HP
-5 % Damage for Cruise missiles and torpedos

Note: I think this is the hardest one, because CCP also made it more or less clear that they don´t like ships specialised on two High Slot weapon systems cause they changed or will change a lot of Minmatar ships this way f.e. the typhon. But alos a lot of other ships of Rhoden ships uses both weapon systems but less drones, but they are also mainly EWAR, Logistic or Interdictors.

Minmatar
Hull: Maelstrom/ Developer: Core Complex
Slots: 8 High 7 Med 6 Low ~2 launchers 8 turrets
BS-Bonus:
5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Rate of Fire per level
7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount per level

Juggernaut bonus
-10 % Bonus on Shield HP
-3% reduction in signature radius per level (maybe a little bit crazy on a BS... got no better idea)

I hope this is a usefull suggestion and they also will have less DPS the the pirat faction ships, so that those won´t get a niche products like the pirate frigs or cruisers (in my opinion)

Er... I think I missed something. Is there a part where you explain how a BS manages to fit and power the same number of capital weapons as a Titan?

Also, why would anyone sacrifice usingbonused weapons to use unbonused ones when they don't have to?

And lastly, Gallente missile boat... Why?
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#6 - 2012-12-15 15:05:10 UTC
Sorry that i didn´t get to answer yesterday , I wasn´t able to get a I-net conection.

[email protected]: I dont mean it like this way, those Juggernauts are not mainly Anti-BS/cap/pos ships, I thought that there role will be some ships holding the line longer then other ships, they also are able to survive one volley. There still should be some improvement so that they are not only used for PVE. I also wouldn´t call them weak against smaller ships , they just got no possibility to shoot them down without wasting a lot of miss-shoots. For the purpose of fighting smaller ships the Marauders are already perfect.

Beside as anti-Cap/pos ships who also get into Highsec, I would prefer the idea mentioned in some of those Pocket Dread threads, so one XL-turret/launcher and a siege modul and totally 8 med and low slots for tank and damage moduls. Your idea with eight XL-turrets is a little bit extrem cause it is more guns then a titan can have.

Offtopic: Those Monitor ships are allready the tier 3 BC, I think. But I ask myself what the German formulation for those ships is? Is there any conection with the monitor lizzard?

@Gizznitt Malikite
Because i only gave them one weapon-bonus (the t2-Hyperion got two but the use is limited by the high slots), but all other T2 and Faction-BS got at least two weapon-boni (i hope i didn´t forget one). Also the most effective way to fight with a juggernaut a frigs or cruiser is to use the def-bonus and try to survive them.

@Hakan MacTrew
The idea with the capital weapons came from sigras, I would stay with large weapons.
Also for the T2-Hyperion I agree with your problems with missile bonus on a Gallente ship, but Roden Shipyard is the Gallentean developer where the ships got a better armour but also prefer missiles instead of drones. They are already only used for Interdictors, HIC, logistic and EWAR ships, so normally the missile bonus is still not used. I really prefer any better suggestion what the second bonus of the T2 skill should be, except all bonis against smaller ships like web, tracking speed and also drones.
AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#7 - 2012-12-15 17:19:40 UTC
You know...I keep seeing people post these cap turret armed battleships...aren't I correct in the understanding that the turrets are almost as large as a battleship? Or am I getting that wrong? How would it fit? =o__O=

Serious concern, not trolling.
Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#8 - 2012-12-15 19:54:04 UTC
AstraPardus wrote:
You know...I keep seeing people post these cap turret armed battleships...aren't I correct in the understanding that the turrets are almost as large as a battleship? Or am I getting that wrong? How would it fit? =o__O=

Serious concern, not trolling.


Ok I repeat myself, maybe I wrote some mistake into the topic, which I don´t find now:
The Juggernaut got NEITHER capital turrets NOR capital launcher NOR fighter NOR fighter bombers, they only use large weapons. So the stuff you typically fit on BS or Tier 3 BC.

But your right for capital weapons the ships would need a new hull, this is also the reason why Stealth bombers good an other hull then their T1-version.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#9 - 2012-12-15 20:16:22 UTC
I like your idea, but battleship weapons already have some interesting issues with hittings smaller things. If it were me, Id ad a -20%weapon sig role bonus to the guns, and a -10% or -15% sig and expV to the missiles. This way we can be sure they have a harder time stopping smaller ships.

The Gellente one in my opinion should use sentries, I recommend a MASSIVE bonus to the sentries hit points, and a damage bonus to only sentries , then would also receive a weapon sig penalty as well.
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#10 - 2012-12-15 20:45:59 UTC
I wouldn´t adjust anything at the weapon signature, when there is the need I would gave them a slight role-malus for tracking speed and explosiv velocity (maybe also drones).

The standard weapon signature is already 400 m for large guns, and the BS signature is around 400 m while cruiser are around 120 m and BC around 250 m (depend on moduls and tank strategy).

The T2-Hyperion would then get something like 20% bonus HP for Sentry drones per T2-skilllevel

But I wouldn´t give it a Damage Bonus because you already have 8 Hybrid-Turrets bonused by the BS-Skill, and Hybrid turrets already have the highest raw -DPS of all turrets (if you keep your target in the optimal range).
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#11 - 2012-12-18 13:04:14 UTC
I mad some changes at the T2 Abbadon. Now it got the same raw-DPS (without moduls) like a Torp-Golem, but needs more ammo. Before it would have more DPS then a golem, which would be totally OP especially because the ship already got more low slots and 4 med slots are normally enough to fit a good passive shield tank (for all the heretics who dares to fit a shield tank on a Amarr ship...I know they are usefull, but still: You sinners!).

Maybe the Minmatar ship also needs a bit more balancing. I just made a proposal cause I dont really got interest in the Minmatar ship, i just added as an idea. I personally really prefer a T2 Khanid BS for Amarr and T2 Turret Ship for Caldari with less Cap issues.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#12 - 2012-12-18 16:37:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Even though I like every bit of diversity added to the game, I can't follow the need for another specialized battleshipclass. The Marauders aren't really intended for pvp apparently, the Black Ops are so specialized you rarely need to use them, the T1/faction/pirate hulls on another note already got a lot of diversity to begin with.

And with ships like Abaddon and Rokh you already have something resembling an utility high platform that is even resistance bonused.

If there was to be a strong t2-battleship having equal or superior boni to offensive systems and resistance bonuses on top of t2 resists, combined with powergrid and cpu to actually mount all the modules without fitting modules and further top it with a battleship buffer, I fear there could be a BEST ship again for those who can afford it. Especially regarding the recent navy apoc hype that took place during fall I doubt an even tankier battleship is a good idea.

At the end of the day, it's CCP duty to keep us entertained, and they recently enlightened our hearts with a new set of destroyers and gave us T1 cruisers. I'll just wait for what happens, can ask for more diversity after the complete shipline got revamped.
Callic Veratar
#13 - 2012-12-18 17:34:57 UTC
With a super-heavy tank, I'd almost suggest adding the titan weapon sig nerf to this ship, meaning even at 0 transversal this ship would have trouble destroying frigates. Possibly no drone bays either, or 25m3/25Mbit max.

For the Gallente hull, I'd suggest 5% hybrid optimal, 5% cap recharge, 5% velocity, or 5% agility. Each would be beneficial without stomping on the role you've defined.
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#14 - 2012-12-19 00:31:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Griffin Omanid
Lloyd Roses wrote:

At the end of the day, it's CCP duty to keep us entertained, and they recently enlightened our hearts with a new set of destroyers and gave us T1 cruisers. I'll just wait for what happens, can ask for more diversity after the complete shipline got revamped.


Common the hole F&I forum is just for sudden ideas which pops up in your head. Some of them are really crap and others... well at least i hope the gave inspiration to the devs.
And I am sure the faction Bs would still have mor DPS then the Marauders and Juggernauts, and T1 are much cheaper then all the others. And I also stated in the OP that the Marauders should loose their ECM weakness (maybe some of them need to get rebalanced damage boni). With this Marauders would be the best Battleships against Cruiser and below, while the Juggernauts would be the toughest and the Faction-BS would be the ships with the highest DPS.

Callic Veratar wrote:
With a super-heavy tank, I'd almost suggest adding the titan weapon sig nerf to this ship, meaning even at 0 transversal this ship would have trouble destroying frigates. Possibly no drone bays either, or 25m3/25Mbit max.

For the Gallente hull, I'd suggest 5% hybrid optimal, 5% cap recharge, 5% velocity, or 5% agility. Each would be beneficial without stomping on the role you've defined.


I didn´t know there are allready ships with a weapon sig malus, maybe this would also be usefull as malus. The small drone bay may also be a good idea, even though I love to use dronesSad.

From you proposed ideas for Gallentean boni, i would prefer the agility boni, it gives you at least some armour moduls free of disadvantage, like the sig bonus would give to shield moduls in the Minmatar ship.
Ja'thaal Deathbringer
The Directionally Challenged
#15 - 2013-01-11 22:53:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ja'thaal Deathbringer
So, essentially you're defining a role of battleship that isn't dissimilar to the Dreadnought role. I have no problems with the idea, I mean, it's a good idea. My only issue is the missile ships where their T1 hull is all turrets.

Personally I would change the Abaddon to a Carthum Conglomerate ship, and make it more centered around turrets, with the bonus to rate of fire. I wouldn't necessarily take away all of the launcher hardpoints, but I would probably flip that around. Thinking from a shipbuilder's perspective, you'd want to take what a ship already had and build on it. The Abaddon is already a very turret heavy ship, why not take that and run with it?

The Hyperion hull, I like, and given that Roden Shipyards favor missiles to hybrid weapons, it makes sense, but given the fact that you want these ships to steer away from general combat purposes, a drone bay may be unbalancing, making that ship more likely to replace the Kronos.

The Maelstrom hull, while good, I think the signature radius bonus may be bad for a battleship. Perhaps a bonus to optimal range in stead?

The Rokh, however, I like the most. I mean, what's not to like? I would possibly take off the launcher hardpoints, or perhaps knock them down to 1 or 2. The cap bonus is a good addition that I quite like, making this ship a more viable option for battleship + combat.

These ships would be great for combating caps, tearing down pos's in empire where Caps can't go, and general Battleship Vs Battleship combat. With a few tweaks this lineup could very well become my new favorite set of ships in the game.
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#16 - 2013-01-12 14:42:09 UTC
Ja'thaal Deathbringer wrote:
So, essentially you're defining a role of battleship that isn't dissimilar to the Dreadnought role. I have no problems with the idea, I mean, it's a good idea. My only issue is the missile ships where their T1 hull is all turrets.

Personally I would change the Abaddon to a Carthum Conglomerate ship, and make it more centered around turrets, with the bonus to rate of fire. I wouldn't necessarily take away all of the launcher hardpoints, but I would probably flip that around. Thinking from a shipbuilder's perspective, you'd want to take what a ship already had and build on it. The Abaddon is already a very turret heavy ship, why not take that and run with it?

The Hyperion hull, I like, and given that Roden Shipyards favor missiles to hybrid weapons, it makes sense, but given the fact that you want these ships to steer away from general combat purposes, a drone bay may be unbalancing, making that ship more likely to replace the Kronos.

The Maelstrom hull, while good, I think the signature radius bonus may be bad for a battleship. Perhaps a bonus to optimal range in stead?

The Rokh, however, I like the most. I mean, what's not to like? I would possibly take off the launcher hardpoints, or perhaps knock them down to 1 or 2. The cap bonus is a good addition that I quite like, making this ship a more viable option for battleship + combat.

These ships would be great for combating caps, tearing down pos's in empire where Caps can't go, and general Battleship Vs Battleship combat. With a few tweaks this lineup could very well become my new favorite set of ships in the game.


First of all thanks, for the bump.

The reason I choose Khanid is easily because I like the Sacrileg, Damnation and Vangeance. They are very tough ships, which easily destroy other ships of the same size as soon they got them in web range, and all of these ships T1 versions, Maller, Prophecy and Punisher, are strong Laser turret ships. Also I think another turret BS is not needed for Amarr, Amarr is already kind of boring in the BS sized ships: Armageddon - BS with Laser, Apocalypse - Bigger BS with Laser, Abbadon - Even Bigger Ship with Laser. The others got much more diversity in the highest SubCap class.
I really like Amarr up to BC, but then it gets boring, not that they are weak, but boring.

I choose the Sig bonus for the Malstrom because i wanted to give it a second defensiv bonus in the T2 skill, cause the others also don´t have two weapon boni. I admit I don´t play with Minmatar-ships, but the sig bonus is a typical Minmatar bonus and is already used by other ships from the same developer Core Complex. Also after some other players mentioned the agility bonus for the T2 Hyperion, I think that these two bonis are quit good for both ships.An armour tanker normally gets an enlarged mass from the armour moduls. Because mass reduction is a little bit crazy in BS and 5 % would be a lot, I think the agility bonus is a nice compensation. A typical shield tanker gets a bigger signature by the shield moduls, which is a little bit consumed by the sig bonus.
Sam Korak
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-01-14 14:19:57 UTC
I like your ideas guys but let's be honest, EVE doesn't need new ships.
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#18 - 2013-01-15 11:19:16 UTC
Sam Korak wrote:
I like your ideas guys but let's be honest, EVE doesn't need new ships.


Ok Eve got alot of usefull ships, and maybe this could be enough. But CCP need at least once a year some new ships they add just for advertisment.
And after they finished the rebalance I think they will add some disruption BS for Amarr, Gallent and Minmatar and an Attack BS for Caldari, and maybe further larger exploration ships beside the T1 version of the CovOps and the T3´s.
Source for my guess: rebalancing eve, one ship at a time
Somewhere in the end is written this:
Quote:
This opens up possibilities in terms of new ships. For example, why does the Amarr drone and tracking disruption line ends with the Arbitrator? Or the Gallente drone and dampening abilities stop with the Exequror? Can’t Minmatar use short range missile platforms to make use of that target painting bonus?


Note: I also think that the Gallente drone line at least goes up until the Dominix, and the Typhoon will surely become a TP/missile plattform.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#19 - 2013-01-15 11:52:55 UTC
I think Juggernaughts should be a dedicated anti-capital t2 Dread that's a cross between E-WAR and Super Heavy HACS.

Capitals that could hold down multiple supers and neutralize them in a small to medium gang.

We have enough Battleships in this game.....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#20 - 2013-01-16 10:51:49 UTC
Well T2 Dreads...

I think before they add any T2 capitals, they should first include more meta Variations for Capital moduls. At the moment i think tit exists 2 Meta variants of XL Turrets and Launchers and there are T2 triage and siege modules.

Their is also the problem that Capitals mostly are already specialised in one or two roles and are mostly moving fortresses. And you would need a lot of training for a T2 Capital. While a T2 BS is already possible for a 6 month old char, you need a lot more time, before you can sit in a T1 Captital. This makes T2 Capitals only interesting for really long players, I would say 3-4 years old a least.

Don´t misunderstand me, I have nothing against T2 Capitals, but I think there would be to few players who would need them.