These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Drug Addicts - CCP, you're doing it wrong (yet again)

Author
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#1 - 2012-04-25 06:25:08 UTC
Drugs are delicious. In game drugs that is. Unless they're drugs that are designed by CCP, so that they don't act like drugs at all.

Yet again, CCP had the chance to design something brilliant. Simple and elegant, yet complex and extraordinary. Yet again CCP misses the mark when they were so close to success.

CCP's current design: when you use a booster (take drugs), you have a random chance of a side effect, you don't know what it will be, and for how long, and how intense it is. Note, this occurs while you are under the effect of the drug. Taking more drugs doesn't fix the problem.

This isn't a very good imitation of how real drugs work. There is a much better way to design the system. Here it is:

In game drugs (boosters) should mimic real life drugs. Take one, it does a little, take two, it does more, take a bunch and you can overdose. While you're high, you have little or no adverse effects. The bad effects come afterwards- you have a hangover. The more you take, then more intense the hangover, and the longer it is. Take drugs long enough and you start needing to take them just to get back to 'regular'- you suffer penalties unless you're using a low level of the drug at all times. Continue to use the drugs long enough and you have to increase your minimum dosage to simply have your stats at 'normal'. Sound familiar?

Positive effects should last for minutes or hours, while negative effects should last for hours, days, even weeks. The effects, both positive and negative should have a scaling effect over time. Effectiveness should peak and then taper off, requiring more drugs to maintain the peak, while negative effects should be similar, peaking and then tapering off, but never going away completely until quite a bit (days?) of time has passed.

The point is, boosters/drugs should provide spectacular advantages (100% increase in DPS anyone?) for a short time, with a long enough penalty phase that it compels the player to take some more, just to avoid the "hangover" phase of the boosters. Which in turn delays the negative phase and compounds the problem by making the next negative phase that much more intense/prolonged. Again, sound familiar?

Everything that I suggest above, can be introduced into the game with the existing framework and mechanics. I'm not asking for anything radical when it comes to code redesign. All we're talking about here is the introduction of a few variables and attributes to the existing item structure. Simple stuff, from a programming point of view.

I may come across has harsh and hyper-critical, but I just don't understand why it's so easy to imagine really good game play mechanics and then CCP seems to ignore the obvious and elegant and instead does something else that is clumsy and disappointing. Just think of all the effort that has gone into features and content that just ends up being wasted because nobody uses said features/content (Factional Warfare anyone?).

Anyway, let's discuss: drugs, why they're awesome, and how they should be implemented in game.

Also- if you support the above idea, please add a "like" to the OP. It helps to let me know if you think my ideas have merit.
scooter Kondur
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-04-25 06:27:08 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Drugs are delicious. In game drugs that is. Unless they're drugs that are designed by CCP, so that they don't act like drugs at all.

Yet again, CCP had the chance to design something brilliant. Simple and elegant, yet complex and extraordinary. Yet again CCP misses the mark when they were so close to success.

CCP's current design: when you use a booster (take drugs), you have a random chance of a side effect, you don't know what it will be, and for how long, and how intense it is. Note, this occurs while you are under the effect of the drug. Taking more drugs doesn't fix the problem.

This isn't a very good imitation of how real drugs work. There is a much better way to design the system. Here it is:

In game drugs (boosters) should mimic real life drugs. Take one, it does a little, take two, it does more, take a bunch and you can overdose. While you're high, you have little or no adverse effects. The bad effects come afterwards- you have a hangover. The more you take, then more intense the hangover, and the longer it is. Take drugs long enough and you start needing to take them just to get back to 'regular'- you suffer penalties unless you're using a low level of the drug at all times. Continue to use the drugs long enough and you have to increase your minimum dosage to simply have your stats at 'normal'. Sound familiar?

Positive effects should last for minutes or hours, while negative effects should last for hours, days, even weeks. The effects, both positive and negative should have a scaling effect over time. Effectiveness should peak and then taper off, requiring more drugs to maintain the peak, while negative effects should be similar, peaking and then tapering off, but never going away completely until quite a bit (days?) of time has passed.

The point is, boosters/drugs should provide spectacular advantages (100% increase in DPS anyone?) for a short time, with a long enough penalty phase that it compels the player to take some more, just to avoid the "hangover" phase of the boosters. Which in turn delays the negative phase and compounds the problem by making the next negative phase that much more intense/prolonged. Again, sound familiar?

Everything that I suggest above, can be introduced into the game with the existing framework and mechanics. I'm not asking for anything radical when it comes to code redesign. All we're talking about here is the introduction of a few variables and attributes to the existing item structure. Simple stuff, from a programming point of view.

I may come across has harsh and hyper-critical, but I just don't understand why it's so easy to imagine really good game play mechanics and then CCP seems to ignore the obvious and elegant and instead does something else that is clumsy and disappointing. Just think of all the effort that has gone into features and content that just ends up being wasted because nobody uses said features/content (Factional Warfare anyone?).

Anyway, let's discuss: drugs, why they're awesome, and how they should be implemented in game.

Also- if you support the above idea, please add a "like" to the OP. It helps to let me know if you think my ideas have merit.


i want to be the bionic man
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#3 - 2012-04-25 06:31:33 UTC
scooter Kondur wrote:

i want to be the bionic man


Elaborate, please.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#4 - 2012-04-25 06:31:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
Actually, this sounds really good.

It'll need some tweaking for specific numbers and stuff but the concept is pretty damn sound. Maybe also add a timer to let people to break the addiction and sober up. Maybe some sort of rehab mechanic in WiS to make it go faster? XD

We need a reason to use boosters! Otherwise no one will have a need to smuggle them!

Making smuggling and drug buster both player professions was on of those great things talked about at the 2011 fanfest and the whole shady bar with secret illegal dealings done in the corner was a great element to the Incarna concept. But you need to actually make boosters viable for that to happen. And we need more then just boosters to make that section of the universe truly prosper.

The Drake is a Lie

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#5 - 2012-04-25 06:32:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Why are you trying to get EVE banned in Australia? Straight

I see no real need to have combat boosters 'mimic' real-life drugs. Besides that, I wouldn't want to see people forced to keep buying boosters because their character is 'addicted'.

EDIT: Not that I have any experience with boosters. Feel free to disregard

EDIT: Well, I was offered some once in college but it was just that one time. Kids, you know?

EDIT: It's just a casual/social thing
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#6 - 2012-04-25 06:33:25 UTC
Supported!

As an Exile user, it feels rather stupid that I can pop them as regularly as I want without any adverse, long-term side effects and addiction. Of course the lore allows the boosters to be super-drugs, results of hypermodern chemistry and free of addiction. Or smtng.

At least the downers really should be implemented, if not the addiction. After an hour of tanking ~everything~, I should feel weaker to tank anything, have slower locking time and lousy tracking for two hours.

.

Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-04-25 07:03:45 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:

i want to be the bionic man


Elaborate, please.

You really don't want him to do that.

Scooter Kondor for CSM 8 Chairman!

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.

Rico Minali
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-04-25 07:10:39 UTC
In that case they should also stop your heart on a very slim chance. Even taking a small dose should have the random chance of killing you, this is also how real life drugs work, even on people who take them for years. Everything is fine, then suddenly poof, dead right off the bat.

Also, with continued use the chance of a permanent detrimental mental health effect, the more often you use them, the higher the chance that you will permanently get a psychosis, possibly a debilitating fear of undocking that will last the rest of your (immortal) life. Generally people never fully recover from this.

And no, all you users out there, dont go telling me im wrong, I work in the healthcare field, I know what Im talking about.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-04-25 07:12:44 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
In that case they should also stop your heart on a very slim chance. Even taking a small dose should have the random chance of killing you, this is also how real life drugs work, even on people who take them for years. Everything is fine, then suddenly poof, dead right off the bat.

Also, with continued use the chance of a permanent detrimental mental health effect, the more often you use them, the higher the chance that you will permanently get a psychosis, possibly a debilitating fear of undocking that will last the rest of your (immortal) life. Generally people never fully recover from this.

And no, all you users out there, dont go telling me im wrong, I work in the healthcare field, I know what Im talking about.


Ponies in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#10 - 2012-04-25 07:14:24 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
Also, with continued use the chance of a permanent detrimental mental health effect, the more often you use them, the higher the chance that you will permanently get a psychosis, possibly a debilitating fear of undocking that will last the rest of your (immortal) life. Generally people never fully recover from this.

Better get into a spacecoffin, so you can never dock and hence undock.

(Unless you have a holding alt for that supercap, of course).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Rico Minali
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-04-25 07:18:20 UTC
Im not serious, these effects would be ridiculous, but I am trying to point out that Eve is a game, you dont want too much reality here.
The bit about my job though is true, Ive been working for years on mental health cases, a very large number of which have been caused by hard drug use.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#12 - 2012-04-25 07:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Rico Minali wrote:
Im not serious, these effects would be ridiculous, but I am trying to point out that Eve is a game, you dont want too much reality here.
The bit about my job though is true, Ive been working for years on mental health cases, a very large number of which have been caused by hard drug use.

If only it podded you out of your titan. You know it would be hilarious. Better keep a holding alt nearby before you hit that booster.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-04-25 07:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Misunderstood Genius
Rico Minali wrote:
Im not serious, these effects would be ridiculous, but I am trying to point out that Eve is a game, you dont want too much reality here.
The bit about my job though is true, Ive been working for years on mental health cases, a very large number of which have been caused by hard drug use.


Agree. The closer EVE is to reality the more the game will suck. The games economy system is still too close to RL. You need to workd to make ISK. Everything ingame becomes a value. Some people can affort to play EVE hours per day to be successful. Some people can't and that's one reason why people leave the game and the EVE community is not really growing. When you get addicted to drugs ingame the whole mechanic will give you a headache and everything is just focused on taking drugs.

The actual mechanic is fine as it is for a game. You take a pill, you get boosted but with negative sideeffects. It's like taking coca*ne to be awesome for hours. Once the effect is done you feel like the opposite, like sh*t. The EVE drugs are just balancing this kind of effects at the same time for the PvP moment: you will be awesome at repping but with less tank and cap. When you would do it in a way like: awesome repping with same tank and cap, you just finish the fight and keep afk for the hangover (no repping bonus and less tank and cap).

The consequences of the OP must be that drugs ruin your gameplay like drugs will ruin your life if you take too much of them and beeing addicted.
Renturu
In Glorium et Decorum
#14 - 2012-04-25 07:59:44 UTC
Meh. The "Tie in" to real life, I think is not exactly correct. These boosters offer COMBAT RELATED bonuses. I don't know of anyone taking h eroin improving there gunshot grouping on a moving target from use.

the reality of RL drug use is a "euphoric" feeling, where as EvE Drug use is more to get instantaneous improvements to your ships capabilities. People who play this game, already know how it works and generally don't tie in what happens in game can happen IRL.

If that were so, there would be people needlessly getting implants to help them drive better/faster. Any implants that do exist are mere prosthetic to replace a missing/dismembered limb/organ.

My 2 P

By the orders of PlunderBunny: ☻/ /▌ / \ This is Bob, post him into your forum sig and help him conquer the forums.

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-04-25 11:42:22 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Drugs are delicious....compels the player to take some more


Sooo, what you're saying is you want to expose minors to drug culture and turn them into a market of addicts?

Morality aside, all you're going to have is a group of people who will WTFPWN your supercap in their Ibis.

Don't ban me, bro!

DIsposible Hero
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-04-25 12:54:22 UTC
The problem with all of these ideas is death is cheap; who cares if you permanently mess yourself up? Just kill yourself and you get a shiny new clone, free of any nasty addictions or brain damage your last meatsack may have accumulted. People with a lot of excess isk would just fly around high all the time with +1000000% to all of their stats, and then kill themselves to avoid the "hangover".
Lexmana
#17 - 2012-04-25 13:16:01 UTC
I like the idea kindof but it is not very good business if players feel the need to quit logging in or unsub just to get off the drugs.
M'nu
Vard School of Cryo Cuisine
#18 - 2012-04-25 14:03:29 UTC
The only side effect or hangover that would be acceptable, is that White Rabbit plays every time you hover over your stash with your cursor.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-04-25 14:28:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
Rico Minali wrote:
In that case they should also stop your heart on a very slim chance. Even taking a small dose should have the random chance of killing you, this is also how real life drugs work, even on people who take them for years. Everything is fine, then suddenly poof, dead right off the bat.

Also, with continued use the chance of a permanent detrimental mental health effect, the more often you use them, the higher the chance that you will permanently get a psychosis, possibly a debilitating fear of undocking that will last the rest of your (immortal) life. Generally people never fully recover from this.

And no, all you users out there, dont go telling me im wrong, I work in the healthcare field, I know what Im talking about.


Hello good sir,

I work at a medical research facility, addiction research department. I have to inform you that you are wrong.
Short overview:
C-ocaine: could possibly kill you via cardiac arrest or stroke, yes.
H-eroin: kills a lot of people, but strictly dose dependant. Highly addictive, but low doses are harmless as far as your vital functions are concerned. After all, opioids are used in pain therapy for ages without killing off the patients.
Amphetamine/Metamphetamine: Could also kill you quickly, not very likely but possible.
Cannabis: There are no THC-receptors in the brain stem, so it simply isn't possible to have a lethal overdose. High doses could cause a psychosis, but could never kill you.
LSD:also very likely to cause psychosis, there is a lethal dose (LD 50), I am not quite sure how high it was but it was ridiculously high.
Shrooms: Lethal dose was somewhere around 10 pounds, iirc. so good luck eating all those.
Benzodiazepines: Extremely high doses may lead to asphyxiation, especially if you are suffering from certain neurological sicknesses or are using them together with opioids. Low doses are harmless. They are widely used as tranquilizers without killing all the patients.
PCP: nasty one. But even here it is more likely that it drives you insane and makes you cut off your head with a chainsaw than outright kill you.

But back on topic and to OP: Why should the boosters in EVE mimic real life drugs? This is science fiction, after all...
edit: stupid wordfilter....

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

Reachok
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-04-25 14:30:26 UTC
No.

The bad guys went the other way, seriously....

123Next pageLast page